TOPIC: Old School D&D Nostalgia Time

Build the dex into a holy symbol? I know it's not on theme bit it would only benefit clerics.

Harlax wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Errata to Hammer might not the simplest. But it has less stat creep impact.than arbitrarily finding something to stack more DEX. That impacts ranged to hit, armor class, and reflex save, not just ability to use the Hammer.

+1 to this.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Maybe a QuickSilver charm vol token this year would solve that issue. In regards to the topic:

2017 Token development called and wants its debate back. It's wrong to change.

The Clerics (well, this one) did debate the Hammer last year for all the reasons stated. They (well, I) gave up because we had access to a +6 DEX Kilt. So, the reason we’re talking about a change is that the Kilt changed, for our purposes anyway, to a +4 DEX.

I agree with your statement that it’s wrong to change, but I think you and I are using the phrase in a different context.

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Errata to Hammer might not the simplest. But it has less stat creep impact.than arbitrarily finding something to stack more DEX. That impacts ranged to hit, armor class, and reflex save, not just ability to use the Hammer.

+1 to this.

Largely the main problem I have with the Transmute kilt is the lack of dex. The 20 dex seemed ok in a year with a +6 kilt.

I do think the 18 dex restriction would make more sense at this point given what the new kilt is.

All that said I don’t think anything will change on this. My guess is that ship already sailed.

I like the idea of just bolting 2 dex onto a lower rarity holy symbol. Why not druids have mistletoe.

Picc wrote: I like the idea of just bolting 2 dex onto a lower rarity holy symbol. Why not druids have mistletoe.

Don’t make us choose between that and our Greater Holy Symbol...

I’ve lost the energy to talk about this anymore. Thanks everyone for trying to help.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Maybe a QuickSilver charm vol token this year would solve that issue. In regards to the topic:

2017 Token development called and wants its debate back. It's wrong to change.

The Clerics (well, this one) did debate the Hammer last year for all the reasons stated. They (well, I) gave up because we had access to a +6 DEX Kilt. So, the reason we’re talking about a change is that the Kilt changed, for our purposes anyway, to a +4 DEX.

I agree with your statement that it’s wrong to change, but I think you and I are using the phrase in a different context.

Brad, I feel for you, Clerics got shafted this year. My main point was stressing to be careful going back changing older tokens. It sets an unhealthy precedent if it becomes common. I get the dilemma with Clerics but other classes have different dilemmas too. The Shadowskin Cloak was really disappointing, in my experience it did not break the game, same goes for the hammer. Most players on Epic die, was that taken into consideration with the nerf?

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Maybe a QuickSilver charm vol token this year would solve that issue. In regards to the topic:

2017 Token development called and wants its debate back. It's wrong to change.

The Clerics (well, this one) did debate the Hammer last year for all the reasons stated. They (well, I) gave up because we had access to a +6 DEX Kilt. So, the reason we’re talking about a change is that the Kilt changed, for our purposes anyway, to a +4 DEX.

I agree with your statement that it’s wrong to change, but I think you and I are using the phrase in a different context.

Brad, I feel for you, Clerics got shafted this year. My main point was stressing to be careful going back changing older tokens. It sets an unhealthy precedent if it becomes common. I get the dilemma with Clerics but other classes have different dilemmas too. The Shadowskin Cloak was really disappointing, in my experience it did not break the game, same goes for the hammer. Most players on Epic die, was that taken into consideration with the nerf?

100% agree, recalls set a dangerous president, IMO they should be used as a last resort only.

Adam Guay wrote: Build the dex into a holy symbol? I know it's not on theme bit it would only benefit clerics.

Why bother giving them dex to fix the problem with the hammer? Just create a cleric only item that says "Ignores requirements on hammers". We can make them gloves and call them Járngreipr.

There are plenty of not so elegant solutions (adding dex to lens, or the shadowskin, or to a holy symbol, etc).

I main a cleric as well, and as much as I agree with Brad about his reasons for wanting to be able to use the hammer, it’s a folly to think everyone will ever get all they want.

Like... this is one example of where it comes up, but i can see a whole lot of cans getting opened if nearly any of them on the token end got changed. What is going to happen as tomes and beads get released in the future? Maybe there will be a dex bead, maybe not. Maybe people will complain how the cleric gets 2 bead slots off the cuff while others get 1.

My biggest guess (and this is a guess) will be that as the beads and tome slots drop, eventually the spread of statistics between all the classes will get revisited to make them a bit more ‘point buy’ equal vs ‘dice roll’. And even then, it will be insanity as nearly every single player will have to readjust every single slot in a effort to meet whatever the new metric is, and no one will enjoy going through that dumpster fire.

Maybe that will happen as the entire game ‘levels up’ with a switch to 5th and 6th level cards, to cut some of the burn.

Clerics definitely ate a pine cone this year. Between the eldritch set ‘smoothing out’ the top end heal bonus between the 2nd to 5th pieces, and the lens nerf, it was a painful year, dropping healing nearly in half, so the kilt design was extra spicy on the high end for the clerics wielding the hammer.

I’m hoping it gets easier to design a dungeon and monsters due to the few retro changes that were made, but I feel that, all things equal, it won’t be long until their is a ‘tome of celerity’ or ‘bead of quick step’ that give a Dex bonus, rectifying the issue.

Templar wrote: * many good points *

Yeah, I know, but it’s a Throwing Hammer, one of the only two ranged weapons we can use. We’re the only ones who can’t use this year’s Crossbow (not saying we should), but it seems like if ANYONE should be able to easily use a Hammer, it should be us, not Rangers and Rogues (no offense).

I wonder if the DEX requirement was modeled after Io’s. I never paid much attention to that one, because we didn’t meet the main requirement for a piercing weapon - “don’t be a Cleric.”

Please don't change Thor's at this point. We really need to see how things shake out for a few years before we mess with a just released legendary. The points brought up are not problems with Thor's per se, but rather issues with Clerics and their relationship to Thor's.

I'm sympathetic but I feel like enough recalls have been issued already.