TOPIC: Old School D&D Nostalgia Time

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What if we put +2 Dex on the Cloak of Shadowskin?

You're killing me, as I'm still getting over the double nerf on that token.

That's why I'm trying to make it better

Adding +2 Dex to the Lenses of Divine Sight makes sense to me since it's primarily a Cleric token, and Clerics are the ones with the Hammer problem.

Druids can use LoDS also of course, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for them now, maybe the Goggles of Instant Analysis makes more sense. Druids only have a few healing spells above one point, so splitting spells isn't nearly as useful for Druids as Clerics.

With all the focus items though.....

Also, +2 Dex might make the Cloak a little better. Not necessarily a must wear, but an interesting choice

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What if we put +2 Dex on the Cloak of Shadowskin?

You're killing me, as I'm still getting over the double nerf on that token.

That's why I'm trying to make it better

Adding +2 Dex to the Lenses of Divine Sight makes sense to me since it's primarily a Cleric token, and Clerics are the ones with the Hammer problem.

Druids can use LoDS also of course, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for them now, maybe the Goggles of Instant Analysis makes more sense. Druids only have a few healing spells above one point, so splitting spells isn't nearly as useful for Druids as Clerics.

With all the focus items though.....

You're probably right, for Druids with Legendary and Relic Focus Items, and 4 or 5 Eldritch Items, they probably do enough healing to easily justify splitting. My Druid has only Rare/UR Focus tokens other than the Relic Baton, so it doesn't make as much sense in that case.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What if we put +2 Dex on the Cloak of Shadowskin?

You're killing me, as I'm still getting over the double nerf on that token.

That's why I'm trying to make it better

Adding +2 Dex to the Lenses of Divine Sight makes sense to me since it's primarily a Cleric token, and Clerics are the ones with the Hammer problem.

Druids can use LoDS also of course, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for them now, maybe the Goggles of Instant Analysis makes more sense. Druids only have a few healing spells above one point, so splitting spells isn't nearly as useful for Druids as Clerics.

With all the focus items though.....

You're probably right, for Druids with Legendary and Relic Focus Items, and 4 or 5 Eldritch Items, they probably do enough healing to easily justify splitting. My Druid has only Rare/UR Focus tokens other than the Relic Baton, so it doesn't make as much sense in that case.

With the new Tome and the addition to LoDS, my Son's Druid build is at +19 heals. Without the legendary Baton or Ring. With the 3 piece bonus. Eventually he will have 4 with the teeth but will probably never have 5. We did not have sufficient foresight to make a second Boots of the Four Winds.

He'll do just fine on healing. The flexibility in allocating the healing in some ways makes the Lenses more usable, even if they are less powerful overall.

Polymorph is not an option for him. He has totally nerfed his STR in favor of CON and Focus. I can't see him dropping the LoDS.

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What if we put +2 Dex on the Cloak of Shadowskin?

You're killing me, as I'm still getting over the double nerf on that token.

That's why I'm trying to make it better

Adding +2 Dex to the Lenses of Divine Sight makes sense to me since it's primarily a Cleric token, and Clerics are the ones with the Hammer problem.

Druids can use LoDS also of course, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for them now, maybe the Goggles of Instant Analysis makes more sense. Druids only have a few healing spells above one point, so splitting spells isn't nearly as useful for Druids as Clerics.

With all the focus items though.....

You're probably right, for Druids with Legendary and Relic Focus Items, and 4 or 5 Eldritch Items, they probably do enough healing to easily justify splitting. My Druid has only Rare/UR Focus tokens other than the Relic Baton, so it doesn't make as much sense in that case.

With the new Tome and the addition to LoDS, my Son's Druid build is at +19 heals. Without the legendary Baton or Ring. With the 3 piece bonus. Eventually he will have 4 with the teeth but will probably never have 5. We did not have sufficient foresight to make a second Boots of the Four Winds.

He'll do just fine on healing. The flexibility in allocating the healing in some ways makes the Lenses more usable, even if they are less powerful overall.

Polymorph is not an option for him. He has totally nerfed his STR in favor of CON and Focus. I can't see him dropping the LoDS.

I don't see how the new LoDS is ever more usable than the old version. Doubling the amount of healing including bonuses should always be significantly more healing than just adding 2 and splitting. Unless I guess you're just casting a 1 or 2 point healing spell including bonuses. I'll certainly give you more balanced, but not more usable.

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What if we put +2 Dex on the Cloak of Shadowskin?

You're killing me, as I'm still getting over the double nerf on that token.

That's why I'm trying to make it better

Adding +2 Dex to the Lenses of Divine Sight makes sense to me since it's primarily a Cleric token, and Clerics are the ones with the Hammer problem.

Druids can use LoDS also of course, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for them now, maybe the Goggles of Instant Analysis makes more sense. Druids only have a few healing spells above one point, so splitting spells isn't nearly as useful for Druids as Clerics.

With all the focus items though.....

You're probably right, for Druids with Legendary and Relic Focus Items, and 4 or 5 Eldritch Items, they probably do enough healing to easily justify splitting. My Druid has only Rare/UR Focus tokens other than the Relic Baton, so it doesn't make as much sense in that case.

With the new Tome and the addition to LoDS, my Son's Druid build is at +19 heals. Without the legendary Baton or Ring. With the 3 piece bonus. Eventually he will have 4 with the teeth but will probably never have 5. We did not have sufficient foresight to make a second Boots of the Four Winds.

He'll do just fine on healing. The flexibility in allocating the healing in some ways makes the Lenses more usable, even if they are less powerful overall.

Polymorph is not an option for him. He has totally nerfed his STR in favor of CON and Focus. I can't see him dropping the LoDS.

I don't see how the new LoDS is ever more usable than the old version. Doubling the amount of healing including bonuses should always be significantly more healing than just adding 2 and splitting. Unless I guess you're just casting a 1 or 2 point healing spell including bonuses. I'll certainly give you more balanced, but not more usable.

More flexible would be a more accurate way of saying it.

I clearly said it was less powerful.

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What if we put +2 Dex on the Cloak of Shadowskin?

You're killing me, as I'm still getting over the double nerf on that token.

That's why I'm trying to make it better

Adding +2 Dex to the Lenses of Divine Sight makes sense to me since it's primarily a Cleric token, and Clerics are the ones with the Hammer problem.

Druids can use LoDS also of course, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for them now, maybe the Goggles of Instant Analysis makes more sense. Druids only have a few healing spells above one point, so splitting spells isn't nearly as useful for Druids as Clerics.

With all the focus items though.....

You're probably right, for Druids with Legendary and Relic Focus Items, and 4 or 5 Eldritch Items, they probably do enough healing to easily justify splitting. My Druid has only Rare/UR Focus tokens other than the Relic Baton, so it doesn't make as much sense in that case.

With the new Tome and the addition to LoDS, my Son's Druid build is at +19 heals. Without the legendary Baton or Ring. With the 3 piece bonus. Eventually he will have 4 with the teeth but will probably never have 5. We did not have sufficient foresight to make a second Boots of the Four Winds.

He'll do just fine on healing. The flexibility in allocating the healing in some ways makes the Lenses more usable, even if they are less powerful overall.

Polymorph is not an option for him. He has totally nerfed his STR in favor of CON and Focus. I can't see him dropping the LoDS.

I don't see how the new LoDS is ever more usable than the old version. Doubling the amount of healing including bonuses should always be significantly more healing than just adding 2 and splitting. Unless I guess you're just casting a 1 or 2 point healing spell including bonuses. I'll certainly give you more balanced, but not more usable.

More flexible would be a more accurate way of saying it.

I clearly said it was less powerful.

Sure, that makes more sense. Although, if you're healing 2 people 28 points each vs 30 points to split, I guess you don't need any flexibility.

I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Errata to Hammer might not the simplest. But it has less stat creep impact.than arbitrarily finding something to stack more DEX. That impacts ranged to hit, armor class, and reflex save, not just ability to use the Hammer.

I agree with Brad, et al, that the Thor's Hammer dex requirement should be lowered. Could have text stating:

A 5th level Cleric the Dex requirement is only 18.

To be blunt this would solve the Clerics dex requirement for Thor's Hammer and still keep the requirement for 20 for all the other classes.

Cheers,
Ed

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I don’t know if changing the hammer is the right answer but it would be nice to pick up 2 dex somewhere that would make since, the cloak, the relic bead, or lower the hammers dex requirement to 18

Maybe a QuickSilver charm vol token this year would solve that issue. In regards to the topic:

2017 Token development called and wants its debate back. It's wrong to change.

Please let this not become the norm on retro fitting existing tokens. Where does it stop? This was thoroughly debated last year. The hammer is not breaking the game. I disagreed on the nerfing of Shadowskin as the Orge battle proved how quickly that can be addressed as did Eric in grind. I get the changes this year but that should be it.

Fiddy wrote:

Phil Norton wrote:

Raven wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I was surprised as well, the player input made fewer changes than I can recall in past years. Jeff did make a lot of changes based on player input, which I really appreciate, but like you said there weren't the big changes like tokens being added and subtracted like in the past.

There were some significant changes.

* Made the Legendary Rogue Necklace not such an OP franken-token as its original draft.

* Made the Str Kilt more appropriate to balance its crazy Str boost

* Promised a Tome slot so Gregor's Tome wouldn't be a slotless boost

* Changed Gregor's from a skill-test bypass to just a focus item (not a change I wanted, but obviously he was moved by some arguments)

* Removed/reworked an OP crossbow

* Reworked Ring of less-than-Heroism to be more newbie friendly

* A lot of clarification in wording... but that always happens.

Not to mention moving the legendaries to the neck slot to not conflict with boots and belts

I'm still rather torn on moving it to the neck slot.

I think it'd be more interesting in the main hand slot. The neck slot has more interesting options than main-hand in higher-level builds already, so placing the Legendaries there feels like it is going to kill that.

Putting it in the main hand slot also means:

• Fewer issues with dealing with special things the DM needs to know about your attack (like affecting crit range).
• Fighters can get a fighter-worthy weapon before 2022 (granted, it sounds like they'd still be waiting until 2021). Until then, it seems like we'll be dealing with Fighters having a legendary weapon that is basically about the same as what Wizards can wield.
• Maybe we could make alternate recipes for those main-hand items that eat existing or future relic weapons, so we don't need additional legendary weapons further down the line.
• We can set some upper bounds on main hand items. Hopefully preventing something like the Hammers from coming into being again in the future.

I agree with Fiddy, rogues are good with their hands. This would be a great place for it!

I just thought of something...

What if Jeff had all of the future tokens ready to go and there was a Lords and Ladies room that we met in on Sunday of GenCon. Sometimes when people are face to face they might react differently.