TOPIC: Old School D&D Nostalgia Time

Simplest way is to just create a new slotless Race token, UR or Runestone - something like

YOU’RE A TROLL - +1 STR +1 CON -4DEX, regen 1/room, all but rogue and Paladin.

Or something like that.

And that would open up an entire new design dimension: race-only tokens

Like:

Broiled Ostrich Leg - half-orc only

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I just don’t want a second rogue added since there is only 1 rogue box in each puzzle room.

OT: Multiple Rogues is an intriguing idea on many levels. Yes, there is only one Rogue box in a given room but having to take turns, competing for the reward would be a fun dynamic!

In fact, I'd support a token that allows non-Rogues to do the Rogue box in a room whether there is a Rogue in the party or not.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:
In fact, I'd support a token that allows non-Rogues to do the Rogue box in a room whether there is a Rogue in the party or not.

I would not.

I dont love that Druids can gain the rogue clue or bardic knowledge with an OOP UR. I definitely don't want anyone else doing the rogue box.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This

We can’t use Welfor’s. We can’t use Io’s, even if we got the DEX. We can’t use the new crossbow that every other class can. We only have two offensive spells, and one of them is Evil-only. (So no constructs, Elementals, animals, slimes...) We have no legendary range option EXCEPT the hammer.

The argument that’s makes the most sense to me for this situation is to keep fighters from stacking all STR and hitting like a truck, so make them spend some DEX. But if that’s the issue, then it could have been addressed directly with a STR cap, or a min CON.

The whole “just wear Cutpurse” argument sounds very much like “let them eat cake.”

Rogues and Rangers can use it by wearing a single RoSP segment, or an uncommon +1 DEX token. Four more classes can get there with that plus the Eldritch Kilt. Everyone else, add another +2, or just keep with the old Kilt.

All Clerics have to do is use the Eldritch Kilt, chase down an OOP UR, and OBTW take a net loss of 4 to 7 STR (depending on what Gloves or Gauntlets they were wearing.) Or, wait four conventions for a hypothetical Charm that hasn’t been announced yet, let alone printed.

If this had been Somebody’s Random Pointy Object, I wouldn’t even care. But I’d still wonder where our ranged legendary was.

Its not just wear cutpurse, it's just that cut purse let's you do it with 2 tokens. I don't have any legendaries, so I'm sure I just don't "get" it, but i see multiple paths to 20dex. There area multiple combinations available between the new kilt, Fatherbane, cut purse, stupendous pendent, quicksilver cube, charm of sipquick, lenses of fey, rod part, and I think all of which are a fraction of the cost of thors hammer. The cheapest option if you're using the Eldrich kilt instead of father bane is to swap a charm with charm of sipquick, at the cost of 1 str and whatever was in the charm slot. In exchange you pickup 10hp and 1 fort save.

Now the theme issue is a different issue all together, but i wasnt around for the token discussion last year. Sounds like it was discussed and the cleric issue was not something that was desired to be addressed?

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I just don’t want a second rogue added since there is only 1 rogue box in each puzzle room.

OT: Multiple Rogues is an intriguing idea on many levels. Yes, there is only one Rogue box in a given room but having to take turns, competing for the reward would be a fun dynamic!

In fact, I'd support a token that allows non-Rogues to do the Rogue box in a room whether there is a Rogue in the party or not.

Lets not make combat even harder asking "ok which rogue attacked with the bow?"...

Now if you're suggesting making more pucks and race typing them for distinction like we do dwarf fighter then that could work in theory.

If you're going down that path I would suggest finding out which classes are the most popular and making a second one of them, rather then going through all the trouble and cost of adding another class that never gets played.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Simplest way is to just create a new slotless Race token, UR or Runestone - something like

YOU’RE A TROLL - +1 STR +1 CON -4DEX, regen 1/room, all but rogue and Paladin.

"Gain the Troll sub-type" is literally Special 's[/url] effect this year.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Simplest way is to just create a new slotless Race token, UR or Runestone - something like

YOU’RE A TROLL - +1 STR +1 CON -4DEX, regen 1/room, all but rogue and Paladin.

Or something like that.

And that would open up an entire new design dimension: race-only tokens

Like:

Broiled Ostrich Leg - half-orc only

This is a great idea, although how do we handle wizard and elf wizard, fighter and dwarf fighter?

I suppose we could do half races, "you are a half troll" or whatever. So fighters could be human/troll or dwarf/troll

Race specific tokens would be a great area to expand into.

Endgame wrote:
Its not just wear cutpurse, it's just that cut purse let's you do it with 2 tokens. I don't have any legendaries, so I'm sure I just don't "get" it, but i see multiple paths to 20dex. There area multiple combinations available between the new kilt, Fatherbane, cut purse, stupendous pendent, quicksilver cube, charm of sipquick, lenses of fey, rod part, and I think all of which are a fraction of the cost of thors hammer. The cheapest option if you're using the Eldrich kilt instead of father bane is to swap a charm with charm of sipquick, at the cost of 1 str and whatever was in the charm slot. In exchange you pickup 10hp and 1 fort save.

“Cake.” Got it.

Here’s an even easier solution. Since we added six classes to Thor’s who shouldn’t be using throwing hammers anyway, let’s add clerics to the new Crossbow. Problem solved.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:
Its not just wear cutpurse, it's just that cut purse let's you do it with 2 tokens. I don't have any legendaries, so I'm sure I just don't "get" it, but i see multiple paths to 20dex. There area multiple combinations available between the new kilt, Fatherbane, cut purse, stupendous pendent, quicksilver cube, charm of sipquick, lenses of fey, rod part, and I think all of which are a fraction of the cost of thors hammer. The cheapest option if you're using the Eldrich kilt instead of father bane is to swap a charm with charm of sipquick, at the cost of 1 str and whatever was in the charm slot. In exchange you pickup 10hp and 1 fort save.

“Cake.” Got it.

Here’s an even easier solution. Since we added six classes to Thor’s who shouldn’t be using throwing hammers anyway, let’s add clerics to the new Crossbow. Problem solved.

So your concern is :

1) want to use thors because it's a hammer, and clerics use hammers
2) have a current build that can use thors
3) want to use new token in a slot, but still want to to use hammer.
4) do not want to change build to accommodate step 3

This sounds like YOU want your cake and want to eat it too.

Where am I going wrong / not understanding here?

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Simplest way is to just create a new slotless Race token, UR or Runestone - something like

YOU’RE A TROLL - +1 STR +1 CON -4DEX, regen 1/room, all but rogue and Paladin.

Or something like that.

And that would open up an entire new design dimension: race-only tokens

Like:

Broiled Ostrich Leg - half-orc only

This is a great idea, although how do we handle wizard and elf wizard, fighter and dwarf fighter?

I suppose we could do half races, "you are a half troll" or whatever. So fighters could be human/troll or dwarf/troll

Race specific tokens would be a great area to expand into.

Sorta on board with this idea, though I dunno about the slotless part. Mostly, I'd want them all to clarify that you can only be using one race token at a time. The best way to ensure that seems like it would be to just have a race token slot. XD

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:
Its not just wear cutpurse, it's just that cut purse let's you do it with 2 tokens. I don't have any legendaries, so I'm sure I just don't "get" it, but i see multiple paths to 20dex. There area multiple combinations available between the new kilt, Fatherbane, cut purse, stupendous pendent, quicksilver cube, charm of sipquick, lenses of fey, rod part, and I think all of which are a fraction of the cost of thors hammer. The cheapest option if you're using the Eldrich kilt instead of father bane is to swap a charm with charm of sipquick, at the cost of 1 str and whatever was in the charm slot. In exchange you pickup 10hp and 1 fort save.

“Cake.” Got it.

Here’s an even easier solution. Since we added six classes to Thor’s who shouldn’t be using throwing hammers anyway, let’s add clerics to the new Crossbow. Problem solved.

So your concern is :

1) want to use thors because it's a hammer, and clerics use hammers
2) have a current build that can use thors
3) want to use new token in a slot, but still want to to use hammer.
4) do not want to change build to accommodate step 3

This sounds like YOU want your cake and want to eat it too.

Where am I going wrong / not understanding here?

I thought I explained it in the first post.

First, I believe the design of the Hammer is inherently flawed. Always did. (As an aside, I was out of the country for the week it was finalized, and by the time I got back it was in the last day of proofreading so nothing I could say would have changed anything.)

Second, due to the nerfing of the Eldritch set, the new Kilt is required even though it is inherently inferior to the UR. (Unlike users of the CON Kilt, for whom it is inarguably superior.) It’s not that I want to use the new Kilt. It’s that so the healing nerf is only 60 vs 70% (or whatever the number is.


Not sure why I have to go over this so many times. I think it’s an issue. You don’t. Game over. We’ll see what happens.

valetutto wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I just don’t want a second rogue added since there is only 1 rogue box in each puzzle room.

OT: Multiple Rogues is an intriguing idea on many levels. Yes, there is only one Rogue box in a given room but having to take turns, competing for the reward would be a fun dynamic!

In fact, I'd support a token that allows non-Rogues to do the Rogue box in a room whether there is a Rogue in the party or not.

Lets not make combat even harder asking "ok which rogue attacked with the bow?"...

Now if you're suggesting making more pucks and race typing them for distinction like we do dwarf fighter then that could work in theory.

If you're going down that path I would suggest finding out which classes are the most popular and making a second one of them, rather then going through all the trouble and cost of adding another class that never gets played.

Combat is already harder now that the DM has the possibility of seeing up to 10 hammers that can be used as a either a melee or ranged attack compounded with the special abilities of certain classes to augment the attack.

As far as multiple Rogues, I'm suggesting different sliders just like the Fighter and Dwarf Fighter. While the two are subtly different, the differences add to the fun of playing Fighter.

As far as the token that lets other classes try the Rogue box, it's only fair now that the Rogue's expanded weapon choices and abilities have encroached on the territory of the high-damage dealing classes. #Joking #NotJoking