TOPIC: Old School D&D Nostalgia Time

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This

We can’t use Welfor’s. We can’t use Io’s, even if we got the DEX. We can’t use the new crossbow that every other class can. We only have two offensive spells, and one of them is Evil-only. (So no constructs, Elementals, animals, slimes...) We have no legendary range option EXCEPT the hammer.

The argument that’s makes the most sense to me for this situation is to keep fighters from stacking all STR and hitting like a truck, so make them spend some DEX. But if that’s the issue, then it could have been addressed directly with a STR cap, or a min CON.

The whole “just wear Cutpurse” argument sounds very much like “let them eat cake.”

Rogues and Rangers can use it by wearing a single RoSP segment, or an uncommon +1 DEX token. Four more classes can get there with that plus the Eldritch Kilt. Everyone else, add another +2, or just keep with the old Kilt.

All Clerics have to do is use the Eldritch Kilt, chase down an OOP UR, and OBTW take a net loss of 4 to 7 STR (depending on what Gloves or Gauntlets they were wearing.) Or, wait four conventions for a hypothetical Charm that hasn’t been announced yet, let alone printed.

If this had been Somebody’s Random Pointy Object, I wouldn’t even care. But I’d still wonder where our ranged legendary was.

Brad Mortensen wrote: it makes coaching much easier to have all odd numbers. Whatever else happens, I hope that stays true.

I may not be a CC anymore, but I assure you I will fight hard for all odd base stats. (To be clear, I don't anticipate a fight, but just in case...)

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This is a very well reasoned argument.

Do we need to stay stuck at 12 classes?

Can we make some other changes or tweaks as well while were at it?

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This is a very well reasoned argument.

Do we need to stay stuck at 12 classes?

Can we make some other changes or tweaks as well while were at it?

I think it would be fun to add Halfling Rogue and Half-Orc Barbarian and I dunno what all. The problems, which aren’t insurmountable, would include the size of font on the party card if they aren’t treated the way prestige classes are. E.g. your party can only pick one from Human Cleric, Half-Elf Cleric, or Templar.

Fiddy made an excellent point. Before Thor’s, only half of all classes could use a throwing hammer: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger. Now everyone can. Three of the added classes can get to 20 DEX with the Eldritch Kilt and a RoSP segment. Poor Bards aren’t much better off than Clerics, and Wizards already are ranged weapons - but they have those fluffy new Robes that make it a cinch.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This is a very well reasoned argument.

Do we need to stay stuck at 12 classes?

Can we make some other changes or tweaks as well while were at it?

I think it would be fun to add Halfling Rogue and Half-Orc Barbarian and I dunno what all. The problems, which aren’t insurmountable, would include the size of font on the party card if they aren’t treated the way prestige classes are. E.g. your party can only pick one from Human Cleric, Half-Elf Cleric, or Templar.

Fiddy made an excellent point. Before Thor’s, only half of all classes could use a throwing hammer: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger. Now everyone can. Three of the added classes can get to 20 DEX with the Eldritch Kilt and a RoSP segment. Poor Bards aren’t much better off than Clerics, and Wizards already are ranged weapons - but they have those fluffy new Robes that make it a cinch.

Oh, hey. If we are talking about doing half-race classes, how about a half-troll cleric with +2 CON & -2 DEX?

kurtreznor wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This is a very well reasoned argument.

Do we need to stay stuck at 12 classes?

Can we make some other changes or tweaks as well while were at it?

I think it would be fun to add Halfling Rogue and Half-Orc Barbarian and I dunno what all. The problems, which aren’t insurmountable, would include the size of font on the party card if they aren’t treated the way prestige classes are. E.g. your party can only pick one from Human Cleric, Half-Elf Cleric, or Templar.

Fiddy made an excellent point. Before Thor’s, only half of all classes could use a throwing hammer: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger. Now everyone can. Three of the added classes can get to 20 DEX with the Eldritch Kilt and a RoSP segment. Poor Bards aren’t much better off than Clerics, and Wizards already are ranged weapons - but they have those fluffy new Robes that make it a cinch.

Oh, hey. If we are talking about doing half-race classes, how about a half-troll cleric with +2 CON & -2 DEX?

Pretty sure that suggestion qualifies as full troll. Or at least full of troll.

Fiddy wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This is a very well reasoned argument.

Do we need to stay stuck at 12 classes?

Can we make some other changes or tweaks as well while were at it?

I think it would be fun to add Halfling Rogue and Half-Orc Barbarian and I dunno what all. The problems, which aren’t insurmountable, would include the size of font on the party card if they aren’t treated the way prestige classes are. E.g. your party can only pick one from Human Cleric, Half-Elf Cleric, or Templar.

Fiddy made an excellent point. Before Thor’s, only half of all classes could use a throwing hammer: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger. Now everyone can. Three of the added classes can get to 20 DEX with the Eldritch Kilt and a RoSP segment. Poor Bards aren’t much better off than Clerics, and Wizards already are ranged weapons - but they have those fluffy new Robes that make it a cinch.

Oh, hey. If we are talking about doing half-race classes, how about a half-troll cleric with +2 CON & -2 DEX?

Pretty sure that suggestion qualifies as full troll. Or at least full of troll.

Even so, doesn’t bother me. I’m all for choices. I just won’t be playing it, but kurtreznor can if he wants.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: I'm not following the core concept of how thors hammer and the cleric is now broken. A cleric needs +9 Dex to wield it, which can be acheived a few different ways with 2 tokens. The +5 baton of focus is better in melee damage as well, so really are we just talking about a ranged cleric build that wants the Eldrich kilt that doesnt want to use gloves of the cut purse?

Up until Thor's, Clerics were one of the limited classes that could use hammers.
Added to this, the only ranged weapons Clerics get access to are slings and throwing hammers. No crossbows, no regular bows, no throwing axes, no daggers, etc.

So making one of the classes previously most likely to wield a hammer have the most difficult time to wield these hammers didn't really make sense. Every other class has a much greater variety of options to get to 20 Dex, and some classes that previously couldn't use hammers at all can get to 20 Dex with a single token.

This was all brought up during development of Thor's, but the process felt more rushed last year than prior years or this year.

Imagine if there was Heavy Armor that was usable by all, but required a 20 Int (sorry poor Fighters)? Or a Wand of Eldritch Lightning that was usable by all but required 20 Wis (sorry Wizards)? I suspect we'd see people from those classes be as upset as some Clerics currently are.

That brings us to card redesign. I strongly think that however the class cards get redesigned, that for each stat, at least four classes share lowest values for that stat, so we give more thought to how the requirement impacts people. Currently, anything balanced by a Dex requirement hurts Clerics more than any other class. Anything balanced by Cha hurts a Dwarf Fighter more than any other class. But if you talk about a Str, Con, or Wis requirement you have four classes that share the lowest stat. And an amazing 9 classes share lowest Int stat.

This is a very well reasoned argument.

Do we need to stay stuck at 12 classes?

Can we make some other changes or tweaks as well while were at it?

I think it would be fun to add Halfling Rogue and Half-Orc Barbarian and I dunno what all. The problems, which aren’t insurmountable, would include the size of font on the party card if they aren’t treated the way prestige classes are. E.g. your party can only pick one from Human Cleric, Half-Elf Cleric, or Templar.

Fiddy made an excellent point. Before Thor’s, only half of all classes could use a throwing hammer: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger. Now everyone can. Three of the added classes can get to 20 DEX with the Eldritch Kilt and a RoSP segment. Poor Bards aren’t much better off than Clerics, and Wizards already are ranged weapons - but they have those fluffy new Robes that make it a cinch.

Oh, hey. If we are talking about doing half-race classes, how about a half-troll cleric with +2 CON & -2 DEX?

Pretty sure that suggestion qualifies as full troll. Or at least full of troll.

Even so, doesn’t bother me. I’m all for choices. I just won’t be playing it, but kurtreznor can if he wants.

Personally, I rather like the idea of more classes having a second version of their card available with some sort of racial-themed modification to stats since it lets people more confidently build for a specific class and have a reasonable chance of it being available. Of course, there are some classes where redundancy might not be useful- bard and rogue seem notable there.

Believe attributes are largely based off of AD&D 1e attribute minimums for different classes with some 3e style increases over oD&D maxes. Saves appear to be 3e style class saves progressions.

Attributes are already used to some degree to try to balance classes - fighter v dwarf. Imagine that that would continue but would remove the wide discrepancies in certain classes - cleric v druid. Attribute minimums unlikely to be as meaningful to players who didn't grow up with 1e. (Similarly, druids getting more spells than clerics is a feature of 1e that is unlikely to need to be replicated.)

What I would like to see is scrapping the saves system in place as it heavily rewards/punishes certain classes to the extent that players care about saves. Can mitigate with different attributes, but that's just a work around to fix a system that starts out of balance.

I would imagine a new model being some smoothing of the extreme variances with more bumps than current for Heroism. So, cleric may continue to start at Dex 11 but go to Dex 13 with Heroism, along with Con or Str (or both) going up two, Wis going up two. Makes level bumps have a bigger benefit assuming still gain a bunch of cool additional abilities through level increases, which is not all upside.

On the other hand, if levels are redone to be 5th -> 6th, then start with 5th level attributes (with some smoothing) and have fewer bumps to 6th but get clerics their +2 Dex. 5th -> 6th also has some interesting changes when it comes to spellcasting, where spellmeisters get 3rd level spells to begin with, which may be a reason that this sort of progression is less likely to occur. More abilities mean more things to track and be aware of - just imagine how many more players would have Lesser Maze questions ...

At this point just take lesser maze off of the card. I'm guessing more "final bosses" will be immune to it and with it resolving before combat damage it's just not worth it.

I just don’t want a second rogue added since there is only 1 rogue box in each puzzle room.