TOPIC: FINAL Transmute Images

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

We're already there through without this charm. I have Lenses of Fortune, do I want to spend $100 on a +1 URTE?

Same here, but that just means that, if I ever pay cash for a UR, I can buy something that actually allows me to have more fun in the dungeon and not feel guilty about not maximizing my treasure pulls. There's a reason that, when I pulled a random UR after a run, I traded it for a +2 Boom Stick and not 80% of a Nugget.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Personally, I think a one-TE limit will discourage buying URTEs in the out years, because the fact you have to lose it means the next Nugget is twice as expensive per TC. Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

A loot cap also discourages buying more TEs when you hit the cap, but it pushes the hurdle further out.

And yeah, you can sell it. But history has shown than almost no transmute ever holds its value for even a week. Most relics sell for half the cost of the ingredients to make them. So let’s not pretend these people are not going to take a loss. It seems to me it would be better to postpone that harsh realization a few years, when their TC drawing has reached a level higher than six. Spending (say) $50 on a token, then being forced to sell it for $20 towards your next Nugget is going to suck.

But I won’t be using it

Brad, it's funny, but that's the kind of argument I was making all along against a token like this. This isn't as bad as the +2 version from earlier, but I do agree with you that no matter where the line is drawn where this transmute is no longer effective, it could inhibit sales. When someone looks at buying that next UR TE Ioun Stone, and it is only going to give them +1 instead of +2 from where they currently are, there may be a percentage of players that decide not to get that next Ioun Stone, that would have gotten it without this transmute. Which could be lost True Dungeon sales.

I think most of the folks here are grossly underestimating the addictiveness of this game getting people a few extra treasure tokens every pore leave them wanting more and more. And then gamblers anonymous could set up a huge booth at Gen Con and do quite well

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

We're already there through without this charm. I have Lenses of Fortune, do I want to spend $100 on a +1 URTE?

Good point.

Absolutely. We can’t eliminate the hurdle without raising the max cap. The best we can do is push it out a TE or two.

I'm still totally cool with the limit of no more than one token on it, but I respect your differing opinion.

So you’re in favor of MetaphoricDragon facing two such hurdles. Okay. Just so we’re all clear.

Another reason the TB needs to be cheap.

That’s all I have to say about it

I'm not sure what you mean about two more hurdles. I think you have one hurdle to jump to straight UR TE tokens from either the Rare or the Rare plus this, no matter where the dividing line is. I must not understand what you are saying.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote: Unless the Ioun stones make a big jump, AoTF costs a lot more than 2 IS's.

I also don't think we should be comparing HoP to 2x Ioun stones either. Very unrealistic.

I bought a AoTF at Gen Con for 175, while Silver Nuggets ran me 125 each. Perhaps I should have just bought 3 extra AoTF instead of Silver Nuggets at that price.

Anyway, why is it OK to boost the AoTF (5 treasure pulls total), but not a Silver Nugget + a Gold Nugget (5 treasure pulls total)?

Because if you want to get the IS Gold Nugget this year it is better to have all three without the Charm since it won't work. The Plan for the Charm is to boost folks with 1 TE token. Mostly those with the Rare. If you got one UR TE chances are you will get/have more than 1. And if you got the ISSN, you can get the ISGN this year and the IS Platinum Nugget in two more years.

That still doesn't explain why its OK for this TE booster to give you a 8th treasure token if you have a AoTF, but its not OK for this TE booster to give you a 8th token if you have a Silver and Gold nugget.

Because it's not the count that matters in the design. It's the quantity of TEs used.

If you got your AoTF for 175 you did very well for yourself.

Begging the question. The question is “why is that okay?”

And the answer is probably “because.”

The truth is if your not playing in the CoA area then a AoTF for $175 is a great deal. Heck I would likely pick up one or 2 at that price anyway.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote: Unless the Ioun stones make a big jump, AoTF costs a lot more than 2 IS's.

I also don't think we should be comparing HoP to 2x Ioun stones either. Very unrealistic.

I bought a AoTF at Gen Con for 175, while Silver Nuggets ran me 125 each. Perhaps I should have just bought 3 extra AoTF instead of Silver Nuggets at that price.

Anyway, why is it OK to boost the AoTF (5 treasure pulls total), but not a Silver Nugget + a Gold Nugget (5 treasure pulls total)?

Because if you want to get the IS Gold Nugget this year it is better to have all three without the Charm since it won't work. The Plan for the Charm is to boost folks with 1 TE token. Mostly those with the Rare. If you got one UR TE chances are you will get/have more than 1. And if you got the ISSN, you can get the ISGN this year and the IS Platinum Nugget in two more years.

That still doesn't explain why its OK for this TE booster to give you a 8th treasure token if you have a AoTF, but its not OK for this TE booster to give you a 8th token if you have a Silver and Gold nugget.

Because it's not the count that matters in the design. It's the quantity of TEs used.

If you got your AoTF for 175 you did very well for yourself.

Begging the question. The question is “why is that okay?”

And the answer is probably “because.”

The truth is if your not playing in the CoA area then a AoTF for $175 is a great deal. Heck I would likely pick up one or 2 at that price anyway.

After you get your one or 2, I would happily take some as well.....

I still do think the small print on the kilt is hiked up a little too high and needs to be lowered for aesthetics.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I'm happy with all of this. Let's make sure the TokenDB pages get updated for Viper Strike Set and Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace to be clear how they interact (sounds like with both a slide of 17-20 counts as a critical which doubles the sneak attack bonus damage). How does it interact with Assassin's Crossbow? Is the bonus damage tripled on a slide of 17+?

If this is correct, does it apply to Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace and Nightshade's +2 Short Sword as well? (Or the Necklace of the Sneak and Nightshade's +2 Short Sword with a slide of 19-20?) The Token DB entry for Nightshade's +2 Short Sword conditions the doubled sneak attack bonus on sliding "a critical hit," not a 20:

Note: If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit.

Maybe this thought came too late, but if the mental abilities are going to be more relevant in the future, perhaps the kilt should have been "+5 HP & choose at the start +4 to any one ability score".

I'm sure most of us have been accused of thinking from between their legs...

Beertram wrote: Maybe this thought came too late, but if the mental stats are going to be more relevant in the future, perhaps the kilt should have been "+5 HP & choose at the start +4 to any one stat".

Disagree. Strongly. Let's please not add more boosts to stats before we know what impact it will have.

Fiddy wrote:

Beertram wrote: Maybe this thought came too late, but if the mental stats are going to be more relevant in the future, perhaps the kilt should have been "+5 HP & choose at the start +4 to any one stat".

Disagree. Strongly. Let's please not add more boosts to stats before we know what impact it will have.

We already have the Charm of Enlightenment (+8 WIS), Moonhide Robe (+3 INT) and Starhide Robe (+5 INT).

Challenges enough without adding to them.

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I'm happy with all of this. Let's make sure the TokenDB pages get updated for Viper Strike Set and Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace to be clear how they interact (sounds like with both a slide of 17-20 counts as a critical which doubles the sneak attack bonus damage). How does it interact with Assassin's Crossbow? Is the bonus damage tripled on a slide of 17+?

If this is correct, does it apply to Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace and Nightshade's +2 Short Sword as well? (Or the Necklace of the Sneak and Nightshade's +2 Short Sword with a slide of 19-20?) The Token DB entry for Nightshade's +2 Short Sword conditions the doubled sneak attack bonus on sliding "a critical hit," not a 20:

Note: If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit.

My interpretation is that both Nightshade and Viper’s double the sneak attack damage bonus from 15 (fourth level) to 30 and 20 (fifth level) to 40 if there is a critical (enhanced range applying).

Both weapons are melee and the Viper Set specifically says melee weapon so it would not apply with Assassin’s Crossbow.

And remember it is just the Rogue’s sneak attacks that are in an enhanced critical range not their normal attacks.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I'm happy with all of this. Let's make sure the TokenDB pages get updated for Viper Strike Set and Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace to be clear how they interact (sounds like with both a slide of 17-20 counts as a critical which doubles the sneak attack bonus damage). How does it interact with Assassin's Crossbow? Is the bonus damage tripled on a slide of 17+?

If this is correct, does it apply to Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace and Nightshade's +2 Short Sword as well? (Or the Necklace of the Sneak and Nightshade's +2 Short Sword with a slide of 19-20?) The Token DB entry for Nightshade's +2 Short Sword conditions the doubled sneak attack bonus on sliding "a critical hit," not a 20:

Note: If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit.

My interpretation is that both Nightshade and Viper’s double the sneak attack damage bonus from 15 (fourth level) to 30 and 20 (fifth level) to 40 if there is a critical (enhanced range applying).

Both weapons are melee and the Viper Set specifically says melee weapon so it would not apply with Assassin’s Crossbow.

And remember it is just the Rogue’s sneak attacks that are in an enhanced critical range not their normal attacks.

Ed

Stacey (best friend/rogue) is really excited about critting on 17 and 18 with this item. Round 1 sneak, round 2 sneak, round 3 flank...probably wont have many attacks without the extended crit range.

But yes, i will remind her that non-sneak attacks dont have the crit range.