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TOPIC: FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens

FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #85

Boilerplate wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.








Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


I don't know what is Bizarro about it. The token requires some reinforcement with players and DMs, but even a thorough analysis from Jeff and Co. has deemed it balanced.


Hey, I disagree 100% (1000% if that's a thing) that it's balanced, but I'm not going to argue anymore to change it, since Jeff feels that it is.


Thank you so much for keeping this alive. I also agree 100% (or 1000%) that MEC is the most unbalanced token in the game.

I mean seriously, does any other token cost so much? Name one. Consider:
- This single token had done more damage to my character than any other. In many runs, I take more damage from MEC than I take from the monsters.
- In the past four years I have only died once prior to time running out in room 7. Yep, I was killed by MEC. We're easily talking over 100 runs here and the score is TD-0, MEC-1. Darn unbalanced token.
- And now they nerf LoDS? I was already sucking up more Cleric and Druid heals than the rest of the party (thanks to MEC), and now I may have to start using consumable potions to stay alive. I guess that adds another $2-$4 to the cost of each run. Ugh. Believe me, I'm sick over all the harm being done to clerics.
- To really get the maximum benefit of MEC you need more 3rd level spells. That means equipping the Crown of Expertise and the Ring of Spell Storing. So that ties up a head and ring slot. Not to mention the cost of 2 more URs.
- And then there's an intelligence requirement. Really? With my head slot already tied up I'm forced to acquire at least the relic for my torso slot. That's not cheap.
- MEC itself takes up a charm slot, thus conflicting with Avarice, Awakened Synergy, Brooching and Spell Swapping. You have to go with synergy just to have the hp to use MEC, so now we're looking at Charm Necklace or Charm Bracelet, so that ties up another slot. No matter which way you go, you need to give up on the Cabal set or Medallion of Mystic Mouth. Both provide massive damage benefits, but bye bye to one of them thanks to MEC.
- Yeah, I get that the kilts are currently OP in the leg slot. But doesn't matter. You'll need Tavernbane or Dungeonbane if you want to live past a couple of MEC spells.
- And MEC itself isn't cheap to acquire. I thank you for pointing that out.
- And have you tried MEC in grind? Yikes! A few uses in grind and two Elixirs of LIfe later and I'm still dying a third time. And the party still didn't survive. So much for MEC being my secret weapon.
- So yeah, every darn token in your build has to consider how you're going to survive MEC. It is a hungry, hungry, token. Surviving a run has less to do with surviving the dungeon and more to do with surviving MEC.

So thanks again for continuing to point out how unbalanced this is. I think some quick fixes would be to drop the 10hp damage cost (or at least lower it), drop the intelligence requirement and restore LoDS to its former glory so I can stay healthy. Oh, or how about making it slotless? No? So why use such an unbalanced token? They don't call it Mad Evoker's Charm for nothing. It does sort of drive you insane. Just ask my baby beholder, she keeps telling me to spill more blood.


Ha ha! A big +1 to this! Well reasoned. And well written too.



+1000
Fall down......Go boom!

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Last edit: by Adam Guay.

FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #86

As I said, I'm dropping out of that debate now that Jeff made up his mind. I'll just be advocating reprinting it next year. :)

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #87

Mike Steele wrote: As I said, I'm dropping out of that debate now that Jeff made up his mind. I'll just be advocating reprinting it next year. :)


Bing!
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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #88

Jeff Martin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: As I said, I'm dropping out of that debate now that Jeff made up his mind. I'll just be advocating reprinting it next year. :)


Bing!


:)

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #89

Thanks gang! This was a great year for the TD Community, as y'all did an amazing job on these tokens.
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Author of the never-to-be-released "The Secret of Trees"

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #90

Thanks for letting us play in your sandbox
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #91

Wow, take a week off of the forums and all heck breaks loose. :)

Thanks for the very thoughtful introduction to this thread Jeff. I understand the reasons. Sad to lose my overpowered Oprah-like "you get 15hp, you get 15 hp, you get 15 hp, etc" from Kelly and my dual lenses but as with all things, TD players will adapt. Now to figure out which PyPs and transmutes to target.

Looking forward to the new collection and builds that come with them.

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #92

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Boilerplate wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


I don't know what is Bizarro about it. The token requires some reinforcement with players and DMs, but even a thorough analysis from Jeff and Co. has deemed it balanced.


Hey, I disagree 100% (1000% if that's a thing) that it's balanced, but I'm not going to argue anymore to change it, since Jeff feels that it is.


Thank you so much for keeping this alive. I also agree 100% (or 1000%) that MEC is the most unbalanced token in the game.

I mean seriously, does any other token cost so much? Name one. Consider:
- This single token had done more damage to my character than any other. In many runs, I take more damage from MEC than I take from the monsters.
- In the past four years I have only died once prior to time running out in room 7. Yep, I was killed by MEC. We're easily talking over 100 runs here and the score is TD-0, MEC-1. Darn unbalanced token.
- And now they nerf LoDS? I was already sucking up more Cleric and Druid heals than the rest of the party (thanks to MEC), and now I may have to start using consumable potions to stay alive. I guess that adds another $2-$4 to the cost of each run. Ugh. Believe me, I'm sick over all the harm being done to clerics.
- To really get the maximum benefit of MEC you need more 3rd level spells. That means equipping the Crown of Expertise and the Ring of Spell Storing. So that ties up a head and ring slot. Not to mention the cost of 2 more URs.
- And then there's an intelligence requirement. Really? With my head slot already tied up I'm forced to acquire at least the relic for my torso slot. That's not cheap.
- MEC itself takes up a charm slot, thus conflicting with Avarice, Awakened Synergy, Brooching and Spell Swapping. You have to go with synergy just to have the hp to use MEC, so now we're looking at Charm Necklace or Charm Bracelet, so that ties up another slot. No matter which way you go, you need to give up on the Cabal set or Medallion of Mystic Mouth. Both provide massive damage benefits, but bye bye to one of them thanks to MEC.
- Yeah, I get that the kilts are currently OP in the leg slot. But doesn't matter. You'll need Tavernbane or Dungeonbane if you want to live past a couple of MEC spells.
- And MEC itself isn't cheap to acquire. I thank you for pointing that out.
- And have you tried MEC in grind? Yikes! A few uses in grind and two Elixirs of LIfe later and I'm still dying a third time. And the party still didn't survive. So much for MEC being my secret weapon.
- So yeah, every darn token in your build has to consider how you're going to survive MEC. It is a hungry, hungry, token. Surviving a run has less to do with surviving the dungeon and more to do with surviving MEC.

So thanks again for continuing to point out how unbalanced this is. I think some quick fixes would be to drop the 10hp damage cost (or at least lower it), drop the intelligence requirement and restore LoDS to its former glory so I can stay healthy. Oh, or how about making it slotless? No? So why use such an unbalanced token? They don't call it Mad Evoker's Charm for nothing. It does sort of drive you insane. Just ask my baby beholder, she keeps telling me to spill more blood.


Ha ha! A big +1 to this! Well reasoned. And well written too.

Yep. Some good points here!
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They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #93

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Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: As I said, I'm dropping out of that debate now that Jeff made up his mind. I'll just be advocating reprinting it next year. :)


Bing!


:)

Indeed
PROUD MEMBER OF THE DDA! :)
They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #94

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Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks gang! This was a great year for the TD Community, as y'all did an amazing job on these tokens.


Thanks for continuing to invite us to the table!
PROUD MEMBER OF THE DDA! :)
They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 1 week ago #95

One of the few games I play where I believe player contributions are reasonably used. Its neat.
Sweet a combat room, we won't take damage!

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 10 months 5 days ago #96

Jeff Martin wrote: 2019 Ultra Rare Notes

Shaman’s Belt (Druid & Wizards) – This token’s full effects won’t fit on the token, so additional info can be found on tokendb.com. The token text reads: Lose 1st level Spell to polymorph into Elemental

Additional Info: The druid can choose one form per room and gain these abilities:

Fire Elemental: Gain -5 Fire resistance and Fire damage subtype
Frost Elemental: Gain -5 Cold resistance and Cold damage subtype
Air Elemental: Gain -5 Shock resistance and Shock damage subtype
Earth Elemental: Gain -5 Sonic resistance and Fire damage subtype

This UR does not grant any special polymorph abilities – like being able to cast spells or transform as a Free Action.



Relic Notes

Greater Shaman’s Necklace (Druid) – This token’s full effects won’t fit on the token, so additional info can be found on tokendb.com. The token text reads: Polymorph into Elemental is Free Action

Additional Info:

This token allows the Druid to change into an elemental instantly as a free action without using a 1st level Spell, but it does not confer the ability to cast Spells in elemental form.

The druid can choose one form per room and gain these abilities:

Fire Elemental: Gain -10 Fire resistance and Fire damage subtype
Frost Elemental: Gain -10Cold resistance and Cold damage subtype
Air Elemental: Gain -10 Shock resistance and Shock damage subtype
Earth Elemental: Gain -10 Sonic resistance and Fire damage subtype



Legendary Notes

The design concept around the legendary tokens is to combine class-oriented tokens to one sweet legendary class specific token.

Iktomi’s Shaper's Necklace (Druid) – This token’s full effects won’t fit on the token, so additional info can be found on tokendb.com. The token text reads: Polymorph into Elemental as Free Action (w/Spells)

This token allows the Druid to change into an elemental instantly as a free action without using a 1st level Spell, and it does confer the ability to cast Spells in elemental form.

The druid can choose one form per room and gain these abilities:

Fire Elemental: Gain -10 Fire resistance and Fire damage subtype
Frost Elemental: Gain -10 Cold resistance and Cold damage subtype
Air Elemental: Gain -10 Shock resistance and Shock damage subtype
Earth Elemental: Gain -10 Sonic resistance and Fire damage subtype

May use any Polymorph Potion as above with all restrictions lifted (free action & Spells), and when they do so they do not have to turn in the token.


I didn't see this answered directly, so I would like clarification.

Can you polymorph multiple times in the same room? From the text, it implies that you choose one form per room, but doesn't state how many times you can actually polymorph.

(Edited)

E.g., UR Belt:
Rd 1: Lose a spell to polymorph (free action) and slide attack (action)
Rd 2: free action to un-polymorph, action to drink a healing potion
Rd 3: lose a spell to polymorph (free action) and slide attack (action)

Same with Relic (and legendary)
E.g., Relic Necklace:
Rd 1: Free action to polymorph, action to slide attack
Rd 2: Free action to un-polymorph, action to drink a healing potion
Rd 3: Free action to polymorph, action to slide attack

Clarification please?

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