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TOPIC: FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens

FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #73

jedibcg wrote:

Matt wrote:
I'm honestly bitter and unhappy especially since a hypothetical +3/bead +2 for UR cloak is over powered but we have plus +3 on a rare cloak?!


Sorry attempting to understand this. What rare cloak is +3?


Cloak of Painful Luck,

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #74

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


Druids of course took basically the same hit on healing. But they also got their class-specific relic and legendary. And they also aren't as impacted by how the Kilt turned out if they're wanting to use last year's Hammers.

I'm just glad that I flat-out avoided the Hammers after how they turned out. Otherwise, I'd probably be as salty as Brad.

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Last edit: by Fiddy.

FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #75

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


I don't know what is Bizarro about it. The token requires some reinforcement with players and DMs, but even a thorough analysis from Jeff and Co. has deemed it balanced.
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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #76

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


I don't know what is Bizarro about it. The token requires some reinforcement with players and DMs, but even a thorough analysis from Jeff and Co. has deemed it balanced.


Hey, I disagree 100% (1000% if that's a thing) that it's balanced, but I'm not going to argue anymore to change it, since Jeff feels that it is.

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #77

George wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I feel worst for clerics.


Don't feel bad for Clerics feel bad for the entire party. I may be odd person but most of my healing is not for combat damage but for puzzle damage. At hardcore level, I could undo two puzzles worth of damage (Between push and failed attempts) . Now I can heal 50% less. A lot less of my pickup groups will get everyone to room 7.

May I suggest...

tokendb.com/token/rays-ring-of-remembrance/

Or at least carry 10 Shirts of Linked Healing for pug groups

Ed
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Last edit: by MasterED.

FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #78

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


Druids of course took basically the same hit on healing. But they also got their class-specific relic and legendary. And they also aren't as impacted by how the Kilt turned out if they're wanting to use last year's Hammers.

I'm just glad that I flat-out avoided the Hammers after how they turned out. Otherwise, I'd probably be as salty as Brad.


Ditto but I was always going to be a focus specialized cleric. If I have to slide for melee then something has gone horribly wrong.

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #79

MasterED wrote:

George wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I feel worst for clerics.


Don't feel bad for Clerics feel bad for the entire party. I may be odd person but most of my healing is not for combat damage but for puzzle damage. At hardcore level, I could undo two puzzles worth of damage (Between push and failed attempts) . Now I can heal 50% less. A lot less of my pickup groups will get everyone to room 7.

May I suggest...

tokendb.com/token/rays-ring-of-remembrance/

Or at least carry 10 Shirts of Linked Healing for pug groups

Ed


10 Shirts of linked healing and bard bulk heal makes things worth wild. Also scrolls of Corpse Scroll Corpse Conversion make a good thing for a Bard/Cleric/Druid.

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #80

James J Krot wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


Druids of course took basically the same hit on healing. But they also got their class-specific relic and legendary. And they also aren't as impacted by how the Kilt turned out if they're wanting to use last year's Hammers.

I'm just glad that I flat-out avoided the Hammers after how they turned out. Otherwise, I'd probably be as salty as Brad.


Ditto but I was always going to be a focus specialized cleric. If I have to slide for melee then something has gone horribly wrong.


Wait, so, if everyone is already at full health, something has gone wrong?
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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #81

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kurtreznor wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


Druids of course took basically the same hit on healing. But they also got their class-specific relic and legendary. And they also aren't as impacted by how the Kilt turned out if they're wanting to use last year's Hammers.

I'm just glad that I flat-out avoided the Hammers after how they turned out. Otherwise, I'd probably be as salty as Brad.


Ditto but I was always going to be a focus specialized cleric. If I have to slide for melee then something has gone horribly wrong.


Wait, so, if everyone is already at full health, something has gone wrong?


I always try to slide on my cleric if no one is in critical need of a heal. Even if I probably won't hit I can provide a bump, and its something to do while I'm waiting for people to get hurt.
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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #82

kurtreznor wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


Druids of course took basically the same hit on healing. But they also got their class-specific relic and legendary. And they also aren't as impacted by how the Kilt turned out if they're wanting to use last year's Hammers.

I'm just glad that I flat-out avoided the Hammers after how they turned out. Otherwise, I'd probably be as salty as Brad.


Ditto but I was always going to be a focus specialized cleric. If I have to slide for melee then something has gone horribly wrong.


Wait, so, if everyone is already at full health, something has gone wrong?


First round of combat I should be buffing the party with a Bless or Prayer. 2nd Round of Combat I should be restoring someones power, spell or healing. In the rare case the monster didn't do any damage maybe its worth it to slide but that is really rare for me.

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #83

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


I don't know what is Bizarro about it. The token requires some reinforcement with players and DMs, but even a thorough analysis from Jeff and Co. has deemed it balanced.


Hey, I disagree 100% (1000% if that's a thing) that it's balanced, but I'm not going to argue anymore to change it, since Jeff feels that it is.


Thank you so much for keeping this alive. I also agree 100% (or 1000%) that MEC is the most unbalanced token in the game.

I mean seriously, does any other token cost so much? Name one. Consider:
- This single token had done more damage to my character than any other. In many runs, I take more damage from MEC than I take from the monsters.
- In the past four years I have only died once prior to time running out in room 7. Yep, I was killed by MEC. We're easily talking over 100 runs here and the score is TD-0, MEC-1. Darn unbalanced token.
- And now they nerf LoDS? I was already sucking up more Cleric and Druid heals than the rest of the party (thanks to MEC), and now I may have to start using consumable potions to stay alive. I guess that adds another $2-$4 to the cost of each run. Ugh. Believe me, I'm sick over all the harm being done to clerics.
- To really get the maximum benefit of MEC you need more 3rd level spells. That means equipping the Crown of Expertise and the Ring of Spell Storing. So that ties up a head and ring slot. Not to mention the cost of 2 more URs.
- And then there's an intelligence requirement. Really? With my head slot already tied up I'm forced to acquire at least the relic for my torso slot. That's not cheap.
- MEC itself takes up a charm slot, thus conflicting with Avarice, Awakened Synergy, Brooching and Spell Swapping. You have to go with synergy just to have the hp to use MEC, so now we're looking at Charm Necklace or Charm Bracelet, so that ties up another slot. No matter which way you go, you need to give up on the Cabal set or Medallion of Mystic Mouth. Both provide massive damage benefits, but bye bye to one of them thanks to MEC.
- Yeah, I get that the kilts are currently OP in the leg slot. But doesn't matter. You'll need Tavernbane or Dungeonbane if you want to live past a couple of MEC spells.
- And MEC itself isn't cheap to acquire. I thank you for pointing that out.
- And have you tried MEC in grind? Yikes! A few uses in grind and two Elixirs of LIfe later and I'm still dying a third time. And the party still didn't survive. So much for MEC being my secret weapon.
- So yeah, every darn token in your build has to consider how you're going to survive MEC. It is a hungry, hungry, token. Surviving a run has less to do with surviving the dungeon and more to do with surviving MEC.

So thanks again for continuing to point out how unbalanced this is. I think some quick fixes would be to drop the 10hp damage cost (or at least lower it), drop the intelligence requirement and restore LoDS to its former glory so I can stay healthy. Oh, or how about making it slotless? No? So why use such an unbalanced token? They don't call it Mad Evoker's Charm for nothing. It does sort of drive you insane. Just ask my baby beholder, she keeps telling me to spill more blood.

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FINAL Notes about 2019 Tokens 1 year 2 weeks ago #84

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I disagree. I think thos year were actually trying to keep power creep down a bit, and fixing some broken tokens.

Are we overcorrecting? Maybe.

There are definitely arguments to be made for several changes.

I feel worst for clerics.


Druids were hit really hard too, but I agree Clerics were hit the hardest since their focus is healing. I do wish the LoDS had been reduced in power to some middle ground instead of all the way down to being borderline worthy of even being played. I'd think it would have still been OK to have been somewhat more powerful but not game breaking.

It kind of feels like living in a Bizarro universe where the MEC is seen as "balanced" but the LoDS can't be more powerful than +2 heals and splitting spells.


I don't know what is Bizarro about it. The token requires some reinforcement with players and DMs, but even a thorough analysis from Jeff and Co. has deemed it balanced.


Hey, I disagree 100% (1000% if that's a thing) that it's balanced, but I'm not going to argue anymore to change it, since Jeff feels that it is.


Thank you so much for keeping this alive. I also agree 100% (or 1000%) that MEC is the most unbalanced token in the game.

I mean seriously, does any other token cost so much? Name one. Consider:
- This single token had done more damage to my character than any other. In many runs, I take more damage from MEC than I take from the monsters.
- In the past four years I have only died once prior to time running out in room 7. Yep, I was killed by MEC. We're easily talking over 100 runs here and the score is TD-0, MEC-1. Darn unbalanced token.
- And now they nerf LoDS? I was already sucking up more Cleric and Druid heals than the rest of the party (thanks to MEC), and now I may have to start using consumable potions to stay alive. I guess that adds another $2-$4 to the cost of each run. Ugh. Believe me, I'm sick over all the harm being done to clerics.
- To really get the maximum benefit of MEC you need more 3rd level spells. That means equipping the Crown of Expertise and the Ring of Spell Storing. So that ties up a head and ring slot. Not to mention the cost of 2 more URs.
- And then there's an intelligence requirement. Really? With my head slot already tied up I'm forced to acquire at least the relic for my torso slot. That's not cheap.
- MEC itself takes up a charm slot, thus conflicting with Avarice, Awakened Synergy, Brooching and Spell Swapping. You have to go with synergy just to have the hp to use MEC, so now we're looking at Charm Necklace or Charm Bracelet, so that ties up another slot. No matter which way you go, you need to give up on the Cabal set or Medallion of Mystic Mouth. Both provide massive damage benefits, but bye bye to one of them thanks to MEC.
- Yeah, I get that the kilts are currently OP in the leg slot. But doesn't matter. You'll need Tavernbane or Dungeonbane if you want to live past a couple of MEC spells.
- And MEC itself isn't cheap to acquire. I thank you for pointing that out.
- And have you tried MEC in grind? Yikes! A few uses in grind and two Elixirs of LIfe later and I'm still dying a third time. And the party still didn't survive. So much for MEC being my secret weapon.
- So yeah, every darn token in your build has to consider how you're going to survive MEC. It is a hungry, hungry, token. Surviving a run has less to do with surviving the dungeon and more to do with surviving MEC.

So thanks again for continuing to point out how unbalanced this is. I think some quick fixes would be to drop the 10hp damage cost (or at least lower it), drop the intelligence requirement and restore LoDS to its former glory so I can stay healthy. Oh, or how about making it slotless? No? So why use such an unbalanced token? They don't call it Mad Evoker's Charm for nothing. It does sort of drive you insane. Just ask my baby beholder, she keeps telling me to spill more blood.


Ha ha! A big +1 to this! Well reasoned. And well written too.

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