TOPIC: Contemplating Gregor's Tome

Picc wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Boilerplate wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Raven wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: I find it interesting your signature line, Raven:

"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Isn't an auto-succeed token trying to do this?

LOL
A bit out of context, but touché!

Boilerplate wrote: Thanks for teasing out the Tome conversation, Raven. I agree that much of the discussion gets lost in the big design threads.

Thank you for your insightful response, Boilerplate!
I don't know if I have time to respond to all of it, but there's a few I'd like to address:

First, the human element is one of the things I love most about this game, and I think that we should be very slow to minimize it. Taking the memorization challenge out of casting is like taking sliding out of physical combat

While I agree that the human element is a fantastic part of TD, I disagree with the analogy.

The memorization challenge is a cool gimmick to make players feel like wizards, but all it really does is add a couple(-ish) points of damage to a total (where combat can add enough to 1-shot a monster). If we wanted to emphasize the human element, we'd make ranged fighters throw darts/beanbags, and make the Paladin physically Lay on Hands for a full minute to do his healing, and get the Barbarian to Scream and pound her chest as she goes into Rage.

In fact, we could require the Bard to sing, and the DM could adjust the party's inspiration totals up or down depending on how good his performance was.

But we don't. We sacrifice those aspects to make the game run more smoothly for everyone else.

So while I think there's something to be said for keeping the challenge intact to provide flavour and fun, I think there's a lot more to be said for listening to the people who say they don't find it fun.

Third, skill tests are one of the few areas in the game where you can get a better result regardless of the tokens in your kit. In that sense, they democratize the game a bit. I love the notion that someone with a very basic token set can potentially earn a tiny bonus that has nothing to do with spendy tokens. Allowing an auto pass token allows the big token spenders to neutralize that tiny advantage with cash. Fuels the “pay to play” critique of TD.

I understand the notion behind this... but disagree with the net result.

You're saying that "big spenders" could neutralize a newbies advantage by spending cash on an auto succeed token which gives them 2-ish extra points. Well, that's *exactly* what the revised option is offering: Spend cash to get a token which gives you +2 to your spells.

So while it feels like an auto-pass would be cheating, what's really coming across to me is that it's okay to cheat as long as you're doing even more damage than a newbie could do.

Fourth, I love that casters currently have to struggle with the decision about whether to take time for the skill test or forego it in hopes of allowing the party to get in more rounds. It is a VERY interesting decision for casters, and removing it from the game with an auto pass on every spell would remove some excellent tension and depth from the caster classes.

True. I totally agree here.
And yet, the Libram Of Looting got rid of the "VERY interesting decision" about taking Loot or Clue.

I choose not to run with that token because I like making that decision, but I am okay with others who prefer not to penalize their parties for personal gain (the way some some Wizards feel they penalize their parties by taking too much time on the challenges.)

Raven, I think you made a key point about some players not enjoying the skills test. I think it's enough of a deterrent to keep some people from playing the classes at all (I've seen it happen). To me that's reason enough to put auto succeed back in.

I do not enjoy sliding, and sliding deters me from playing a physical combat class. But I wouldn’t even dream of asking for a token that would allow me to skip sliding every turn so that I could feel more comfortable trying out fighter et al. Like I said above, I think such a token would cause a riot. On second thought, maybe we should create a token that allows sliders to roll a d20 instead of sliding (and maybe do average damage on the wheel)...

If players don’t enjoy the memorization tests, then they can simply choose not to take them and their spells will still be plenty effective. Not so with sliding; there is no option to skip and do 3 less damage. To me, that already makes the casting classes more “approachable” than the physical combat classes.

I don't see sliding and memorization tests as similar at all, personally. I've never seen anyone skip a combat class due to sliding, in my experience those are seen as the "easier" classes due to the lack of memorization required.

Yet it is possible, even with a ludicrous bonus, to totally miss when sliding. Your Wizard's Magic Missile always hits.

That's just it though, every str item contributes to bypassing the slide. If you have +20 hit your effective bypassing being able to miss.We could make the skill-autopass token require a failed attempt at a skill check I suppose but at that point I suspect the conversation would go something like

DM (starts looking for beads): Show me...

Player interrupts pointing at DMs apron:That one, I have the tome. Jim you heal 8.

Unless you hit the backboard - auto miss. Or you get bumped off the board - auto miss. Or Raven's blink dogs do guard duty and bump you into next week. (Our supply of turkey legs is running low...).

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Boilerplate wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Raven wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: I find it interesting your signature line, Raven:

"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Isn't an auto-succeed token trying to do this?

LOL
A bit out of context, but touché!

Boilerplate wrote: Thanks for teasing out the Tome conversation, Raven. I agree that much of the discussion gets lost in the big design threads.

Thank you for your insightful response, Boilerplate!
I don't know if I have time to respond to all of it, but there's a few I'd like to address:

First, the human element is one of the things I love most about this game, and I think that we should be very slow to minimize it. Taking the memorization challenge out of casting is like taking sliding out of physical combat

While I agree that the human element is a fantastic part of TD, I disagree with the analogy.

The memorization challenge is a cool gimmick to make players feel like wizards, but all it really does is add a couple(-ish) points of damage to a total (where combat can add enough to 1-shot a monster). If we wanted to emphasize the human element, we'd make ranged fighters throw darts/beanbags, and make the Paladin physically Lay on Hands for a full minute to do his healing, and get the Barbarian to Scream and pound her chest as she goes into Rage.

In fact, we could require the Bard to sing, and the DM could adjust the party's inspiration totals up or down depending on how good his performance was.

But we don't. We sacrifice those aspects to make the game run more smoothly for everyone else.

So while I think there's something to be said for keeping the challenge intact to provide flavour and fun, I think there's a lot more to be said for listening to the people who say they don't find it fun.

Third, skill tests are one of the few areas in the game where you can get a better result regardless of the tokens in your kit. In that sense, they democratize the game a bit. I love the notion that someone with a very basic token set can potentially earn a tiny bonus that has nothing to do with spendy tokens. Allowing an auto pass token allows the big token spenders to neutralize that tiny advantage with cash. Fuels the “pay to play” critique of TD.

I understand the notion behind this... but disagree with the net result.

You're saying that "big spenders" could neutralize a newbies advantage by spending cash on an auto succeed token which gives them 2-ish extra points. Well, that's *exactly* what the revised option is offering: Spend cash to get a token which gives you +2 to your spells.

So while it feels like an auto-pass would be cheating, what's really coming across to me is that it's okay to cheat as long as you're doing even more damage than a newbie could do.

Fourth, I love that casters currently have to struggle with the decision about whether to take time for the skill test or forego it in hopes of allowing the party to get in more rounds. It is a VERY interesting decision for casters, and removing it from the game with an auto pass on every spell would remove some excellent tension and depth from the caster classes.

True. I totally agree here.
And yet, the Libram Of Looting got rid of the "VERY interesting decision" about taking Loot or Clue.

I choose not to run with that token because I like making that decision, but I am okay with others who prefer not to penalize their parties for personal gain (the way some some Wizards feel they penalize their parties by taking too much time on the challenges.)

Raven, I think you made a key point about some players not enjoying the skills test. I think it's enough of a deterrent to keep some people from playing the classes at all (I've seen it happen). To me that's reason enough to put auto succeed back in.

I do not enjoy sliding, and sliding deters me from playing a physical combat class. But I wouldn’t even dream of asking for a token that would allow me to skip sliding every turn so that I could feel more comfortable trying out fighter et al. Like I said above, I think such a token would cause a riot. On second thought, maybe we should create a token that allows sliders to roll a d20 instead of sliding (and maybe do average damage on the wheel)...

If players don’t enjoy the memorization tests, then they can simply choose not to take them and their spells will still be plenty effective. Not so with sliding; there is no option to skip and do 3 less damage. To me, that already makes the casting classes more “approachable” than the physical combat classes.

I don't see sliding and memorization tests as similar at all, personally. I've never seen anyone skip a combat class due to sliding, in my experience those are seen as the "easier" classes due to the lack of memorization required.

Yet it is possible, even with a ludicrous bonus, to totally miss when sliding. Your Wizard's Magic Missile always hits.

That's just it though, every str item contributes to bypassing the slide. If you have +20 hit your effective bypassing being able to miss.We could make the skill-autopass token require a failed attempt at a skill check I suppose but at that point I suspect the conversation would go something like

DM (starts looking for beads): Show me...

Player interrupts pointing at DMs apron:That one, I have the tome. Jim you heal 8.

Unless you hit the backboard - auto miss. Or you get bumped off the board - auto miss. Or Raven's blink dogs do guard duty and bump you into next week. (Our supply of turkey legs is running low...).

Yes but those are all special cases someone with a +20 hit isn't going to be thinking about. Two of them can be more oress addressed just by sliding last.

I agree with basically everything raven said.

As a +2 focus slotless, it is a must have that i will get.
As an auto-succeed, i WANT it.

And please dont split the classes or add other abilities to the auto-succceed. Part of what makes it work is that you can use it for wizard, druid, OR cleric, as you need. And other abilities risk it being overpowered due to being slotless.

The idea of auto-succeed or risk the skill check for +1 fail vs +5 succeed...sounds like a nice mechanic to draw interest from those who want to do skill check, but also adds a lot of complication to this token. I think it best to let the auto-pass be its own thing. Someday later (maybe even at rare) have a token give an extra bonus for succeeding.

And, oh...there are more pages of posts here than i thought, so im just gonna post now and maybe jump in again later if i get caught up.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote: Just a correction -

Raven wrote: In its first incarnation (on the L&L forum) the token read, "Auto-succeed at skill checks & +1 to healing, damage spells, & polymorph attacks."

It was actually +2.

By having both powers on one token it was beyond OP.

It was +1 when I got to it on the 28th, the first day of discussion, I've saved the image.

I guess it's not impossible it was +2 for a new york minute at some point before I saw it.

You are correct Matt - sorry my mistake there. Edited accordingly.

Ed

Incognito wrote: Just a correction of my own:

MasterED wrote: Just a correction -

Raven wrote: In its first incarnation (on the L&L forum) the token read, "Auto-succeed at skill checks & +1 to healing, damage spells, & polymorph attacks."

It was actually +2.

By having both powers on one token it was beyond OP.

Raven wrote: If there's a Tome slot eventually, it might be appropriate for a +1 Tome of focus. But if we put the +1 into a slotless token right now, then there'll be that much more backlash against any potential Tome slot in the future, because people would see it as losing a free +1 focus.

I respectfully disagree - look at Questor's Charm. When it launched the Charm slot it didn't get backlash.

I am fine with the Tome as it sits.

Putting an envelope to my head to predict the future (if you get the reference +1 to you)...

Soon there will be another Tome that does grant an auto succeed and who knows we might even see a Tome slot. It has been discussed in the forums just nothing yet.

Questor's Charm did NOT launch the Charm slot.

When it was first printed, Questor's Charm was slotless. It was only when other charms were printed that a Charm slot was formally created.

That is exactly what I meant. This was in relation to Raven saying that if there would be a Tome slot in the future there would be outrage for a Tome to go from Slotless to Slotted. Sorry my message wasn't received as intended.

Ed

Picc wrote:

Arnold wrote: Where's the love for folks with anxiety who discover our great game in 2021 and beyond?

Would it be possible to make Gregor's a timeless UR choice? I'd be on board in an instant if it were always a choosable UR from now on. Also, as a very special tribute token it would be cool if it were timeless.

Going to a forever UR might be opening another can of worms. I feel like a 2 year print followed by a reprint if the price went nuts would still be a reasonable accommodation.

I'd agree with that. A 2 year cycle like other URs, and a reprint down the road if required.

I am a bit surprised at the number of posts on this topic.

1) I really don't see why this is such a big deal anyway. If you don't want to do the check in the dungeon just don't do it. It's that simple you don't need a token not to do the check.

2) I think most people would agree that the current difference in terms of power level between doing the check and not doing the check is insignificant today. So you have a test that is not very impactful. Much different then the Rogue box or the Bard's Lore check. So IMO it's only a matter of time before TPTB revamps the checks in some way. Either get rid of them (because why have an in game element that doesn't really matter) or make the bonus matter. Maybe a bonus that scales with the dungeon difficulty. +3 pts on Normal up to maybe +10 or so on Nightmare. Or something like that. If this happens (which hopefully it does) now you have a slotless Token that may be OP.

Kind of wish Jeff had never put the auto pass feature on a token to begin with. But if he hadn't then we'd probably have an extra 100 posts on the Kilt...

Rob F wrote: Kind of wish Jeff had never put the auto pass feature on a token to begin with. But if he hadn't then we'd probably have an extra 100 posts on the Kilt...

It’s a tribute token.

Tribute tokens are meant to be special.

There’s nothing special about focus. We have a dozen of those tokens already.

So based on what you know about Jeff and his brother, what would you suggest instead?

Rob F wrote: I am a bit surprised at the number of posts on this topic.

1) I really don't see why this is such a big deal anyway. If you don't want to do the check in the dungeon just don't do it. It's that simple you don't need a token not to do the check.

2) I think most people would agree that the current difference in terms of power level between doing the check and not doing the check is insignificant today. So you have a test that is not very impactful. Much different then the Rogue box or the Bard's Lore check. So IMO it's only a matter of time before TPTB revamps the checks in some way. Either get rid of them (because why have an in game element that doesn't really matter) or make the bonus matter. Maybe a bonus that scales with the dungeon difficulty. +3 pts on Normal up to maybe +10 or so on Nightmare. Or something like that. If this happens (which hopefully it does) now you have a slotless Token that may be OP.

Kind of wish Jeff had never put the auto pass feature on a token to begin with. But if he hadn't then we'd probably have an extra 100 posts on the Kilt...

So, it it isn't a big deal, and if the amount of damage added from the check is insignificant, why not allow the auto-pass to be added for those that want it, in addition to +1 or +2 Focus (hopefully including polymorph)?

Mike Steele wrote:

Rob F wrote: I am a bit surprised at the number of posts on this topic.

1) I really don't see why this is such a big deal anyway. If you don't want to do the check in the dungeon just don't do it. It's that simple you don't need a token not to do the check.

2) I think most people would agree that the current difference in terms of power level between doing the check and not doing the check is insignificant today. So you have a test that is not very impactful. Much different then the Rogue box or the Bard's Lore check. So IMO it's only a matter of time before TPTB revamps the checks in some way. Either get rid of them (because why have an in game element that doesn't really matter) or make the bonus matter. Maybe a bonus that scales with the dungeon difficulty. +3 pts on Normal up to maybe +10 or so on Nightmare. Or something like that. If this happens (which hopefully it does) now you have a slotless Token that may be OP.

Kind of wish Jeff had never put the auto pass feature on a token to begin with. But if he hadn't then we'd probably have an extra 100 posts on the Kilt...

So, it it isn't a big deal, and if the amount of damage added from the check is insignificant, why not allow the auto-pass to be added for those that want it, in addition to +1 or +2 Focus (hopefully including polymorph)?

I think the point is that is isnt a big deal now, that it limits future design space if we want change what the check is worth in the future. That may never happen, but limiting ourselves isnt a sound strategy.

A slotless item, auto passing, with focus IS overpowered.

The only way to correct that would be to create a tome slot, which might cause some outrage.

I hope Jeff is able to find a token that properly honors his brother, regardless of what we are all asking for here.

Rob F wrote: Kind of wish Jeff had never put the auto pass feature on a token to begin with. But if he hadn't then we'd probably have an extra 100 posts on the Kilt...

And we are starting to plow the same ground over and over on this one as well.

Rob F wrote: I am a bit surprised at the number of posts on this topic.

I concur but I am glad to see it. That means people are passionate about the experience of the game.

Clearly, many people love the level of immersion of the skill checks. I could see how they may be irritated that someone could bypass something they practiced, learned, and take pride in. I could also see how someone afraid to play a memorization class would enjoy having the freedom now. I could see how NM+ players could speed up their game and improve their damage.

Very enlightening.

Ed