TOPIC: Contemplating Gregor's Tome

Lordoftherealm wrote: I am also sure that Jeff has the tokens ready to go, overpowers them for the debates, just to have everyone argue back to his original thoughts

yup!

Maybe a dumb question from someone who shouldn't play wizard again (perpetual reminder, don't cast fireball when rest of party is in a lake). Do wizards use anything in off hand?

Would making this an off hand item work and help combat the feel of slotless power creep? By making it off hand least it takes a existing slot and fits in with stuff like the brawlers horn/mug far as damage boosting?

Matt wrote: Maybe a dumb question from someone who shouldn't play wizard again (perpetual reminder, don't cast fireball when rest of party is in a lake). Do wizards use anything in off hand?

Would making this an off hand item work and help combat the feel of slotless power creep? By making it off hand least it takes a existing slot and fits in with stuff like the brawlers horn/mug far as damage boosting?

Clerics say no.

Druids too.

Matt wrote: Maybe a dumb question from someone who shouldn't play wizard again (perpetual reminder, don't cast fireball when rest of party is in a lake). Do wizards use anything in off hand?

Would making this an off hand item work and help combat the feel of slotless power creep? By making it off hand least it takes a existing slot and fits in with stuff like the brawlers horn/mug far as damage boosting?

If you are using a Staff of Focus, both your hands are occupied while casting.

Actually, I think both are needed for casting in any circumstance.

Matt wrote: Maybe a dumb question from someone who shouldn't play wizard again (perpetual reminder, don't cast fireball when rest of party is in a lake). Do wizards use anything in off hand?

Would making this an off hand item work and help combat the feel of slotless power creep? By making it off hand least it takes a existing slot and fits in with stuff like the brawlers horn/mug far as damage boosting?

Wizards "of focus" weapons are two handed staves, so this doesn't work for them.

It could work for Clerics and Druids.

By having both powers on one token it was beyond OP.

Raven wrote: If there's a Tome slot eventually, it might be appropriate for a +1 Tome of focus. But if we put the +1 into a slotless token right now, then there'll be that much more backlash against any potential Tome slot in the future, because people would see it as losing a free +1 focus.

I respectfully disagree - look at Questor's Charm. When it launched the Charm slot it didn't get backlash.

I am fine with the Tome as it sits.

Putting an envelope to my head to predict the future (if you get the reference +1 to you)...

Soon there will be another Tome that does grant an auto succeed and who knows we might even see a Tome slot. It has been discussed in the forums just nothing yet.

Ed

MasterED wrote: Just a correction -

Raven wrote: In its first incarnation (on the L&L forum) the token read, "Auto-succeed at skill checks & +1 to healing, damage spells, & polymorph attacks."

It was actually +2.

By having both powers on one token it was beyond OP.

It was +1 when I got to it on the 28th, the first day of discussion, I've saved the image.

I guess it's not impossible it was +2 for a new york minute at some point before I saw it.

MasterED wrote: Just a correction -

Raven wrote: In its first incarnation (on the L&L forum) the token read, "Auto-succeed at skill checks & +1 to healing, damage spells, & polymorph attacks."

It was actually +2.

By having both powers on one token it was beyond OP.

Raven wrote: If there's a Tome slot eventually, it might be appropriate for a +1 Tome of focus. But if we put the +1 into a slotless token right now, then there'll be that much more backlash against any potential Tome slot in the future, because people would see it as losing a free +1 focus.

I respectfully disagree - look at Questor's Charm. When it launched the Charm slot it didn't get backlash.

I am fine with the Tome as it sits.

Putting an envelope to my head to predict the future (if you get the reference +1 to you)...

Soon there will be another Tome that does grant an auto succeed and who knows we might even see a Tome slot. It has been discussed in the forums just nothing yet.

Ed

Grekel! wrote: Raven,
The Rod has a penalty.
The Bowl is a kind of limited or partial bypass.

If It is to be a bypass token, it should include a drawback.

If there was another UR which gave a player a chance at 3 free tokens per run.. yeah, it should have a drawback!

But we've already demonstrated (repeatedly) that +2 healing or +2 damage is an acceptable power level for a token.

I can agree, tho, that an auto-pass for the Bard would be more significant than this, so I can understand the desire to have them left off this token. Perhaps another auto-succeed token for the Bard - with a penalty or downside - would be good at a later date.

I also don’t think that a UR token is a very good way to address special needs...

No, it isn't. I agree there. But I also disagree with it as an argument against.

Although some folks have said it could be used to address Special needs, I don't hear anyone asking for a token designed specifically for that reason.

In fact, I would really caution against using "Special Needs" an argument for or against the token.

Saying that "an auto-succeed token addresses special needs" makes it sound like everyone who is asking for it as a way to avoid anxiety has some diagnosable psychological problem. They probably don't; and if they do, it's their own choice whether they compensate for it, or ask for accommodations.

There's plenty of other reasons to want an auto-succeed token. You might have a quiet voice and have a hard time talking over noisy friends. You might be nervous around strangers. Even if it's something like, "I was up really late last night and am hung over this morning, and don't want my party to suffer for my bad choices" is completely valid. Or it could just be, "Meh... I don't feel like it today."

Let's not bring special needs into it.

Matt Goodman wrote: I find it interesting your signature line, Raven:

"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Isn't an auto-succeed token trying to do this?

LOL
A bit out of context, but touché!

Boilerplate wrote: Thanks for teasing out the Tome conversation, Raven. I agree that much of the discussion gets lost in the big design threads.

Thank you for your insightful response, Boilerplate!
I don't know if I have time to respond to all of it, but there's a few I'd like to address:

First, the human element is one of the things I love most about this game, and I think that we should be very slow to minimize it. Taking the memorization challenge out of casting is like taking sliding out of physical combat

While I agree that the human element is a fantastic part of TD, I disagree with the analogy.

The memorization challenge is a cool gimmick to make players feel like wizards, but all it really does is add a couple(-ish) points of damage to a total (where combat can add enough to 1-shot a monster). If we wanted to emphasize the human element, we'd make ranged fighters throw darts/beanbags, and make the Paladin physically Lay on Hands for a full minute to do his healing, and get the Barbarian to Scream and pound her chest as she goes into Rage.

In fact, we could require the Bard to sing, and the DM could adjust the party's inspiration totals up or down depending on how good his performance was.

But we don't. We sacrifice those aspects to make the game run more smoothly for everyone else.

So while I think there's something to be said for keeping the challenge intact to provide flavour and fun, I think there's a lot more to be said for listening to the people who say they don't find it fun.

Third, skill tests are one of the few areas in the game where you can get a better result regardless of the tokens in your kit. In that sense, they democratize the game a bit. I love the notion that someone with a very basic token set can potentially earn a tiny bonus that has nothing to do with spendy tokens. Allowing an auto pass token allows the big token spenders to neutralize that tiny advantage with cash. Fuels the “pay to play” critique of TD.

I understand the notion behind this... but disagree with the net result.

You're saying that "big spenders" could neutralize a newbies advantage by spending cash on an auto succeed token which gives them 2-ish extra points. Well, that's *exactly* what the revised option is offering: Spend cash to get a token which gives you +2 to your spells.

So while it feels like an auto-pass would be cheating, what's really coming across to me is that it's okay to cheat as long as you're doing even more damage than a newbie could do.

Fourth, I love that casters currently have to struggle with the decision about whether to take time for the skill test or forego it in hopes of allowing the party to get in more rounds. It is a VERY interesting decision for casters, and removing it from the game with an auto pass on every spell would remove some excellent tension and depth from the caster classes.

True. I totally agree here.
And yet, the Libram Of Looting got rid of the "VERY interesting decision" about taking Loot or Clue.

I choose not to run with that token because I like making that decision, but I am okay with others who prefer not to penalize their parties for personal gain (the way some some Wizards feel they penalize their parties by taking too much time on the challenges.)

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote: Just a correction -

Raven wrote: In its first incarnation (on the L&L forum) the token read, "Auto-succeed at skill checks & +1 to healing, damage spells, & polymorph attacks."

It was actually +2.

By having both powers on one token it was beyond OP.

It was +1 when I got to it on the 28th, the first day of discussion, I've saved the image.

I guess it's not impossible it was +2 for a new york minute at some point before I saw it.

Yeah - I saved images of all the iterations I've seen so far, too.
Mine from the L&L says "+1"