TOPIC: Notes about Tokens for 2019 !!

archmage78 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: On a side note, I'm amazed that there are enough non-MEC tokens to add up to +34 damage. That's a lot more than I would have guessed. How many slots does all of that take up though.

2 Rings (2x Relsa's) -> +10 Focus
Both hands (Drake's Staff) -> +5 Focus
Boots (Four WInds) -> +5 Focus
Earcuff (Inspiration) -> +4 Spell Damage from (maxed) Bardsong
Bracers (BoC, need full party) -> +3 Focus
Eyes (Lenses of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Shirt (Shirt of Focus) -> +2 Focus
Neck (Medallion of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Hand (Blessed Tempest Gloves) -> +3 Spell damage

34 total (some of it conditional)

Next year adding the Gregor's tome, and the three item Eldritch set bonus will bump tht up to 38

So that's 10 tokens in 10 slots, including two Legendary tokens, to get to +32 Damage. And one token in one slot, MEC, to add up to +20 Damage. Once again - very overpowered.

Incorrect. One UR to get between 3 and 20 (and the twenty only once or twice) averaging 10.4 at the cost of 10 HP every time. versus 32 every time with no extra down side.

What exactly was I incorrect about? What you're saying isn't contradicting what I said, other than I guess the subjective statement of whether or not it is overpowered. And, the obvious downside of the 32 points is all the other tokens you could be putting in those 10 slots and what they could do for you (the opportunity cost). Plus of course the actual cost of them, those 10 would cost someone a lot more than one MEC.

Probably no point in discussing the MEC further at this point, I haven't seen any signs that it's going to be changed in this development cycle. Maybe just wait to continue the conversation next token development cycle.

The Mad Evokers Charm is an amazing and very powerful item. For years I have been equipping my party and I have always refused to equip this because of the crazy expensive price tag on it. This year I took the plunge and I will say that it is unbelievably good. My wizard was finally taking center stage in a combat instead of being an after thought. I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Welcome to the MeC family!

Because people might get the wrong impression, do you mean:

Two Wizards did 45 a round for a total of 90, or that they each did 90?

Is MeC the only UR or better that came into play, or are there also boots of the four winds, Ring of Spell Storing, other relics or legendaries, etc.?

Was this every combat room - or just one?

archmage78 wrote: Exactly, it seems that people don't realize that Wizards can get up to that damage level.

What, half of Dwarf Fighter? Even his non-crits hit for more than a Wizard’s 0- and 1-Level spells, MEC or not.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

archmage78 wrote: Exactly, it seems that people don't realize that Wizards can get up to that damage level.

What, half of Dwarf Fighter? Even his non-crits hit for more than a Wizard’s 0- and 1-Level spells, MEC or not.

I'm hitting for 23 points before the damage dial is added in, so 29 is my minimum.

archmage78 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: On a side note, I'm amazed that there are enough non-MEC tokens to add up to +34 damage. That's a lot more than I would have guessed. How many slots does all of that take up though.

2 Rings (2x Relsa's) -> +10 Focus
Both hands (Drake's Staff) -> +5 Focus
Boots (Four WInds) -> +5 Focus
Earcuff (Inspiration) -> +4 Spell Damage from (maxed) Bardsong
Bracers (BoC, need full party) -> +3 Focus
Eyes (Lenses of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Shirt (Shirt of Focus) -> +2 Focus
Neck (Medallion of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Hand (Blessed Tempest Gloves) -> +3 Spell damage

34 total (some of it conditional)

Next year adding the Gregor's tome, and the three item Eldritch set bonus will bump tht up to 38

So that's 10 tokens in 10 slots, including two Legendary tokens, to get to +32 Damage. And one token in one slot, MEC, to add up to +20 Damage. Once again - very overpowered.

Incorrect. One UR to get between 3 and 20 (and the twenty only once or twice) averaging 10.4 at the cost of 10 HP every time. versus 32 every time with no extra down side.

What exactly was I incorrect about? What you're saying isn't contradicting what I said, other than I guess the subjective statement of whether or not it is overpowered. And, the obvious downside of the 32 points is all the other tokens you could be putting in those 10 slots and what they could do for you (the opportunity cost). Plus of course the actual cost of them, those 10 would cost someone a lot more than one MEC.

Probably no point in discussing the MEC further at this point, I haven't seen any signs that it's going to be changed in this development cycle. Maybe just wait to continue the conversation next token development cycle.

The Mad Evokers Charm is an amazing and very powerful item. For years I have been equipping my party and I have always refused to equip this because of the crazy expensive price tag on it. This year I took the plunge and I will say that it is unbelievably good. My wizard was finally taking center stage in a combat instead of being an after thought. I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Exactly! I haven't even outfitted our Wizards with MEC because they would totally dominate the combats - which they do to an extent already without it. The fact that it's already up to $400 shows how powerful and in-demand it is. That's above what the LoDS and Cloak of Shadowskin were selling for from the same year, and they got nerfed.

Mike Steele wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: On a side note, I'm amazed that there are enough non-MEC tokens to add up to +34 damage. That's a lot more than I would have guessed. How many slots does all of that take up though.

2 Rings (2x Relsa's) -> +10 Focus
Both hands (Drake's Staff) -> +5 Focus
Boots (Four WInds) -> +5 Focus
Earcuff (Inspiration) -> +4 Spell Damage from (maxed) Bardsong
Bracers (BoC, need full party) -> +3 Focus
Eyes (Lenses of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Shirt (Shirt of Focus) -> +2 Focus
Neck (Medallion of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Hand (Blessed Tempest Gloves) -> +3 Spell damage

34 total (some of it conditional)

Next year adding the Gregor's tome, and the three item Eldritch set bonus will bump tht up to 38

So that's 10 tokens in 10 slots, including two Legendary tokens, to get to +32 Damage. And one token in one slot, MEC, to add up to +20 Damage. Once again - very overpowered.

Incorrect. One UR to get between 3 and 20 (and the twenty only once or twice) averaging 10.4 at the cost of 10 HP every time. versus 32 every time with no extra down side.

What exactly was I incorrect about? What you're saying isn't contradicting what I said, other than I guess the subjective statement of whether or not it is overpowered. And, the obvious downside of the 32 points is all the other tokens you could be putting in those 10 slots and what they could do for you (the opportunity cost). Plus of course the actual cost of them, those 10 would cost someone a lot more than one MEC.

Probably no point in discussing the MEC further at this point, I haven't seen any signs that it's going to be changed in this development cycle. Maybe just wait to continue the conversation next token development cycle.

The Mad Evokers Charm is an amazing and very powerful item. For years I have been equipping my party and I have always refused to equip this because of the crazy expensive price tag on it. This year I took the plunge and I will say that it is unbelievably good. My wizard was finally taking center stage in a combat instead of being an after thought. I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Exactly! I haven't even outfitted our Wizards with MEC because they would totally dominate the combats - which they do to an extent already without it. The fact that it's already up to $400 shows how powerful and in-demand it is. That's above what the LoDS and Cloak of Shadowskin were selling for from the same year, and they got nerfed.

Mike,
Dominating combat is simply not reality. I don’t have the Ro7P nor some of the other extremely uncommon very high end tokens but I do use MEC sparingly to protect my HP and I can tell you for sure, more often than not my damage is anecdotal compared to the fighter types in my group.
Now I have always used it properly only doubling base damage.
So I have never dominated damage.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: On a side note, I'm amazed that there are enough non-MEC tokens to add up to +34 damage. That's a lot more than I would have guessed. How many slots does all of that take up though.

2 Rings (2x Relsa's) -> +10 Focus
Both hands (Drake's Staff) -> +5 Focus
Boots (Four WInds) -> +5 Focus
Earcuff (Inspiration) -> +4 Spell Damage from (maxed) Bardsong
Bracers (BoC, need full party) -> +3 Focus
Eyes (Lenses of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Shirt (Shirt of Focus) -> +2 Focus
Neck (Medallion of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Hand (Blessed Tempest Gloves) -> +3 Spell damage

34 total (some of it conditional)

Next year adding the Gregor's tome, and the three item Eldritch set bonus will bump tht up to 38

So that's 10 tokens in 10 slots, including two Legendary tokens, to get to +32 Damage. And one token in one slot, MEC, to add up to +20 Damage. Once again - very overpowered.

Incorrect. One UR to get between 3 and 20 (and the twenty only once or twice) averaging 10.4 at the cost of 10 HP every time. versus 32 every time with no extra down side.

What exactly was I incorrect about? What you're saying isn't contradicting what I said, other than I guess the subjective statement of whether or not it is overpowered. And, the obvious downside of the 32 points is all the other tokens you could be putting in those 10 slots and what they could do for you (the opportunity cost). Plus of course the actual cost of them, those 10 would cost someone a lot more than one MEC.

Probably no point in discussing the MEC further at this point, I haven't seen any signs that it's going to be changed in this development cycle. Maybe just wait to continue the conversation next token development cycle.

The Mad Evokers Charm is an amazing and very powerful item. For years I have been equipping my party and I have always refused to equip this because of the crazy expensive price tag on it. This year I took the plunge and I will say that it is unbelievably good. My wizard was finally taking center stage in a combat instead of being an after thought. I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Exactly! I haven't even outfitted our Wizards with MEC because they would totally dominate the combats - which they do to an extent already without it. The fact that it's already up to $400 shows how powerful and in-demand it is. That's above what the LoDS and Cloak of Shadowskin were selling for from the same year, and they got nerfed.

Mike,
Dominating combat is simply not reality. I don’t have the Ro7P nor some of the other extremely uncommon very high end tokens but I do use MEC sparingly to protect my HP and I can tell you for sure, more often than not my damage is anecdotal compared to the fighter types in my group.
Now I have always used it properly only doubling base damage.
So I have never dominated damage.

ditto

Mike Steele wrote: Exactly! I haven't even outfitted our Wizards with MEC because they would totally dominate the combats - which they do to an extent already without it. The fact that it's already up to $400 shows how powerful and in-demand it is. That's above what the LoDS and Cloak of Shadowskin were selling for from the same year, and they got nerfed.

Not sure where you got the $400 price but my guess is TD Tavern. As Kirk has said in the past, he raises his price on his last one to prevent selling out.

MEC just brings Wizards up to similar damage levels the melee classes can do during combat. It can't be used more than once a round and only adds the original spell damage. If the Wizard uses a high level spell and MEC's it they only have a few of those - they can't do it every round in the dungeon (they would run out) and can't do it every combat (not enough high level spells). Yes they can do it on every spell if they wish but there are diminishing returns on 0/1 level spells (due to the -10 HP).

From a numbers perspective MEC is balanced in the game (as it stands now).

Ed

PS - I do have MEC if anyone is interested and I will gladly beat the $400 (no offense Kirk).

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Exactly! I haven't even outfitted our Wizards with MEC because they would totally dominate the combats - which they do to an extent already without it. The fact that it's already up to $400 shows how powerful and in-demand it is. That's above what the LoDS and Cloak of Shadowskin were selling for from the same year, and they got nerfed.

Not sure where you got the $400 price but my guess is TD Tavern. As Kirk has said in the past, he raises his price on his last one to prevent selling out.

MEC just brings Wizards up to similar damage levels the melee classes can do during combat. It can't be used more than once a round and only adds the original spell damage. If the Wizard uses a high level spell and MEC's it they only have a few of those - they can't do it every round in the dungeon (they would run out) and can't do it every combat (not enough high level spells). Yes they can do it on every spell if they wish but there are diminishing returns on 0/1 level spells (due to the -10 HP).

From a numbers perspective MEC is balanced in the game (as it stands now).

Ed

PS - I do have MEC if anyone is interested and I will gladly beat the $400 (no offense Kirk).

Kirk has 3 in stock. I've seen them selling in the $350 or more range, so that's not far off from what I've seen.

Mike Steele wrote: Kirk has 3 in stock. I've seen them selling in the $350 or more range, so that's not far off from what I've seen.

Sweet - I can be selling mine then!

Regardless, price is a reflection of supply and demand - so there is high Wizard demand and lower supply. As I mentioned it elevates the Wizard to be on par with the melee classes. Hence the demand.

That does not mean by itself the token is overpowered.

I will challenge you though to show me the numbers of a Wizard build and a Ranger and Dwarf Fighter build - prove to me the DPS of a Wizard with a MEC is unbalanced compared to a similarly equipped melee build.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Kirk has 3 in stock. I've seen them selling in the $350 or more range, so that's not far off from what I've seen.

Sweet - I can be selling mine then!

Regardless, price is a reflection of supply and demand - so there is high Wizard demand and lower supply. As I mentioned it elevates the Wizard to be on par with the melee classes. Hence the demand.

That does not mean by itself the token is overpowered.

I will challenge you though to show me the numbers of a Wizard build and a Ranger and Dwarf Fighter build - prove to me the DPS of a Wizard with a MEC is unbalanced compared to a similarly equipped melee build.

Ed

Ed, "challenge" and "prove to me" seem a bit aggressive. I wasn't talking about the overall balance of Wizard vs. other classes, I'm talking about the power level of this one token. I am in complete agreement with you that there is a high Wizard demand for this token, which is another sign of it being overpowered. If a single UR elevates the Wizard to being on par with melee classes - again, I'd say that's clear evidence that that single UR is massively overpowered.

I'm sure you and I aren't going to agree on whether it is overpowered or not, which is fine. Diversity of views is a good thing.

Mike Steele wrote: I'm sure you and I aren't going to agree on whether it is overpowered or not, which is fine. Diversity of views is a good thing.

Agreed (see we can agree on some things)

Ed

Grekel! wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: On a side note, I'm amazed that there are enough non-MEC tokens to add up to +34 damage. That's a lot more than I would have guessed. How many slots does all of that take up though.

2 Rings (2x Relsa's) -> +10 Focus
Both hands (Drake's Staff) -> +5 Focus
Boots (Four WInds) -> +5 Focus
Earcuff (Inspiration) -> +4 Spell Damage from (maxed) Bardsong
Bracers (BoC, need full party) -> +3 Focus
Eyes (Lenses of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Shirt (Shirt of Focus) -> +2 Focus
Neck (Medallion of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Hand (Blessed Tempest Gloves) -> +3 Spell damage

34 total (some of it conditional)

Next year adding the Gregor's tome, and the three item Eldritch set bonus will bump tht up to 38

So that's 10 tokens in 10 slots, including two Legendary tokens, to get to +32 Damage. And one token in one slot, MEC, to add up to +20 Damage. Once again - very overpowered.

Incorrect. One UR to get between 3 and 20 (and the twenty only once or twice) averaging 10.4 at the cost of 10 HP every time. versus 32 every time with no extra down side.

What exactly was I incorrect about? What you're saying isn't contradicting what I said, other than I guess the subjective statement of whether or not it is overpowered. And, the obvious downside of the 32 points is all the other tokens you could be putting in those 10 slots and what they could do for you (the opportunity cost). Plus of course the actual cost of them, those 10 would cost someone a lot more than one MEC.

Probably no point in discussing the MEC further at this point, I haven't seen any signs that it's going to be changed in this development cycle. Maybe just wait to continue the conversation next token development cycle.

The Mad Evokers Charm is an amazing and very powerful item. For years I have been equipping my party and I have always refused to equip this because of the crazy expensive price tag on it. This year I took the plunge and I will say that it is unbelievably good. My wizard was finally taking center stage in a combat instead of being an after thought. I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Exactly! I haven't even outfitted our Wizards with MEC because they would totally dominate the combats - which they do to an extent already without it. The fact that it's already up to $400 shows how powerful and in-demand it is. That's above what the LoDS and Cloak of Shadowskin were selling for from the same year, and they got nerfed.

Mike,
Dominating combat is simply not reality. I don’t have the Ro7P nor some of the other extremely uncommon very high end tokens but I do use MEC sparingly to protect my HP and I can tell you for sure, more often than not my damage is anecdotal compared to the fighter types in my group.
Now I have always used it properly only doubling base damage.
So I have never dominated damage.

ditto

Having run with both of these Wizards, I've seen the MEC in action. They use this power when the party really needs it or is in a tough spot. It's that ace in the hole that most would want to have which drives the price so high but it isn't the be-all-end-all Wizard token. And they certainly are not dominating the combat with it.