TOPIC: Notes about Tokens for 2019 !!

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote: Regarding the Shadowskin cloak... It is too bad that it could not be switched to...

50% miss chance to the first successful melee or missile attack against the character 1/room

So even if you are "hit" it may not be a miss and the initial idea for the cloak might stay?

If rooms weren't timed, this would be a great solution.

Imagine rolling for each cloak? Yikes.

No difference than the Rakshasa this year.

I haven't had a chance to play this year yet, but if there truly is a monster you have to roll 10 times for, that is a bit of a delay.

I was thinking of a party with 10 cloaks, all needing to be rolled for the same round.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote: Regarding the Shadowskin cloak... It is too bad that it could not be switched to...

50% miss chance to the first successful melee or missile attack against the character 1/room

So even if you are "hit" it may not be a miss and the initial idea for the cloak might stay?

If rooms weren't timed, this would be a great solution.

Imagine rolling for each cloak? Yikes.

No difference than the Rakshasa this year.

I haven't had a chance to play this year yet, but if there truly is a monster you have to roll 10 times for, that is a bit of a delay.

I was thinking of a party with 10 cloaks, all needing to be rolled for the same round.

I played it at gencon and origins, if memory serves correctly it was one save for the party at origins and individual roles at gencon, so likely just different GMs ran the room different is my guess.

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: On a side note, I'm amazed that there are enough non-MEC tokens to add up to +34 damage. That's a lot more than I would have guessed. How many slots does all of that take up though.

2 Rings (2x Relsa's) -> +10 Focus
Both hands (Drake's Staff) -> +5 Focus
Boots (Four WInds) -> +5 Focus
Earcuff (Inspiration) -> +4 Spell Damage from (maxed) Bardsong
Bracers (BoC, need full party) -> +3 Focus
Eyes (Lenses of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Shirt (Shirt of Focus) -> +2 Focus
Neck (Medallion of Focus) -> +1 Focus
Hand (Blessed Tempest Gloves) -> +3 Spell damage

34 total (some of it conditional)

Next year adding the Gregor's tome, and the three item Eldritch set bonus will bump tht up to 38

So that's 10 tokens in 10 slots, including two Legendary tokens, to get to +32 Damage. And one token in one slot, MEC, to add up to +20 Damage. Once again - very overpowered.

Incorrect. One UR to get between 3 and 20 (and the twenty only once or twice) averaging 10.4 at the cost of 10 HP every time. versus 32 every time with no extra down side.

What exactly was I incorrect about? What you're saying isn't contradicting what I said, other than I guess the subjective statement of whether or not it is overpowered. And, the obvious downside of the 32 points is all the other tokens you could be putting in those 10 slots and what they could do for you (the opportunity cost). Plus of course the actual cost of them, those 10 would cost someone a lot more than one MEC.

Probably no point in discussing the MEC further at this point, I haven't seen any signs that it's going to be changed in this development cycle. Maybe just wait to continue the conversation next token development cycle.

The Mad Evokers Charm is an amazing and very powerful item. For years I have been equipping my party and I have always refused to equip this because of the crazy expensive price tag on it. This year I took the plunge and I will say that it is unbelievably good. My wizard was finally taking center stage in a combat instead of being an after thought. I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

archmage78 wrote: ...I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Out of curiosity, how did you do that? Yes, at level 5 that’s possible three rounds out of 14 (at which point you’re out if spells.)

Brad Mortensen wrote:

archmage78 wrote: ...I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Out of curiosity, how did you do that? Yes, at level 5 that’s possible three rounds out of 14 (at which point you’re out if spells.)

He did say 2 wizards, so if we assume 45 each,

Pick your spell+planar check
Double that
Add all focus bonuses

Seems like each could get to 45 fairly easily

But if you really set it up, there are so many tokens and powers that can renew and give the Wizards their spells again. And even if they only do it once, that still makes the token very powerful. We are talking fully decked out Wizards with all the focus items. Yes, that requires a lot of other tokens, but so does truly using a Legendary weapon. That is what both sides of this debate doesn't seem to understand. To create a major character it takes all of the slots, not just one. Legendary weapons by themselves don't by themselves make the fighter, but set up with all of the strength and damage enhancers makes them very very powerful.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

archmage78 wrote: ...I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Out of curiosity, how did you do that? Yes, at level 5 that’s possible three rounds out of 14 (at which point you’re out if spells.)

He did say 2 wizards, so if we assume 45 each,

Pick your spell+planar check
Double that
Add all focus bonuses

Seems like each could get to 45 fairly easily

If you don't have a budget, it is fairly easy to get to 75-85 points of damage. With all the focus items and the boots of 4.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

archmage78 wrote: ...I'm not saying it's broken, but two wizards doing 90 points of damage in the first round makes combat go awfully fast. I'm not wading into this argument, but the evoker is far better than most of you are making it out to be.

Out of curiosity, how did you do that? Yes, at level 5 that’s possible three rounds out of 14 (at which point you’re out if spells.)

He did say 2 wizards, so if we assume 45 each,

Pick your spell+planar check
Double that
Add all focus bonuses

Seems like each could get to 45 fairly easily

Right, but human and elf only have five 2nd & 3rd Level damage spells between them, so they can only do that two rounds max in the whole dungeon. (Barring token mojo of course.)

Meanwhile, a Dwarf Fighter friend of mine regularly does over 100 all by himself. I’ve seen it.

Ah, that is not exactly possible. I mean I guess if you crit'ed every time and got max damage and got max weapon damage every time but that isn't exactly reliable.

One wizard can get to 90hp of damage, but only by using Ring of Spell Storing or the Cabal Set. Those are the tokens that really let a wizard reach high levels of damage. MEC helps. Look, I'm very strong advocate of MEC because of how fun it is. I know it deals damage, but I also take more damage from MEC than I do from the dungeon. It makes me constantly stay aware of my hp in my builds and during combat. But again, I will say there are other tokens and abilities in TD that deal just as much or more damage than MEC. Unless you want to address them all, then targeting MEC just makes no sense unless you just hate wizards.

The only real difference I see between MEC now and when it was first released is that there are more ways to get hp, so it is a little less of a concern. Although, the changes to LoDS and eldritch do make me worry about whether MEC will become an issue.

Thinking along those lines, one change to MEC I would find interesting is to equate the hp damage taken to the spell bonus. If the base damage is 3 pts, than double 3pts and take 3 pts of damage. If you want to use MEC on a fireball, that's fine, but take 20pts of damage. You would probably see MEC used more on lower end spells and more cautiously on high end spells.

archmage78 wrote: Ah, that is not exactly possible. I mean I guess if you crit'ed every time and got max damage and got max weapon damage every time but that isn't exactly reliable.

DFs get triple-crits, so it kind of is

He’s a good slider, so he does it as often as a MEC Wiz can do 50, but no, not as reliably

Exactly, it seems that people don't realize that Wizards can get up to that damage level.