TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images!

Kirk Bauer wrote: I thought the Kilt was perfect at +4, but I can live with +5. +4 and 5hp isn't too bad either. +6 is crazy too powerful. Remember this is part of the Eldritch Set too. If you really want +6 then I'd love to see some people still running with the UR Kilts.

+1 I agree 100% with Kirk on this one.

Eldritch or transmute for that matter doesn't always have to be better in every situation. If you combine the stats the +5 and Eldritch bonus bump is a net positive taking into account the negatives on each of the +6 tokens. If you ignore or don't care about the negatives then the UR is going to be better. I see no reason why this should be a problem.

FiannaTiger wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I thought the Kilt was perfect at +4, but I can live with +5. +4 and 5hp isn't too bad either. +6 is crazy too powerful. Remember this is part of the Eldritch Set too. If you really want +6 then I'd love to see some people still running with the UR Kilts.

+1 I agree 100% with Kirk on this one.

Eldritch or transmute for that matter doesn't always have to be better in every situation. If you combine the stats the +5 and Eldritch bonus bump is a net positive taking into account the negatives on each of the +6 tokens. If you ignore or don't care about the negatives then the UR is going to be better. I see no reason why this should be a problem.

+2. I would have still made a lot of kilts even if Jeff had left it at plus 4

+5 is great for the Eldritch Kilt.

Here is what you gain upgrading each UR Kilt to Eldritch, assuming you get the set bonus. Half points don't exist of course but it's the easiest way to compare. I would argue there are plenty ways to add or subtract that +1 STR/DEX/CON to make your stats even.

STR builds
-0.5 melee to hit
+0.5 melee/thrown damage
+7.5 HP
+1.5 fort saves
+1.5 ranged to-hit
+1.5 AC
+1.5 reflex saves
+ part of a level bump
+1 ranged/spell damage (not thrown since I included that above)
+2 spell healing (irrelevant to some classes, yes, but not all)

First two are a wash IMO, so it's almost all positive here. I would always use the Eldritch Kilt.

DEX builds
-0.5 ranged to hit
-0.5 reflex saves
-0.5 AC
+1 melee to hit
+2 melee/thrown damage (if using Thor's, wouldn't you absolutely want this?)
+5 HP
+1 fort saves
+ part of a level bump
+1 ranged/spell damage (not thrown)
+2 spell healing

CON builds
-2.5 HP
-0.5 fort saves
+2 AC
+2 ranged to hit
+2 reflex saves
+1 melee/ranged/spell damage (Wizards want spell damage right?)
+ part of a level bump
+2 spell healing

Also for the Wizards, there have been an absolute TON of CON/HP/self-healing items released since MEC (2014). Are they really hurting for HP?

So, bottom line, I wouldn't dismiss the Eldritch Kilt simply because 5 is less than 6.

Rob F wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Kenban wrote: I think the kilt should be +6 since the components are +6. If that is too powerful for the price instead of nerfing the kilt, make the recipe more expensive. If people feel like 3 Ultra Rare tokens is not enough, maybe require a 4th Ultra Rare. The recipe could require any UR pants, or even just a 4th Ultra Rare, your choice you can use anything.

It feels like at the very least the combined item should be equal to the sum of its parts, if those parts are +6, the result should be at least +6.

Would it be ok then to have a +20 str belt if the recipe was expensive enough? The problem with OP tokens is they will eventually ruin the game. Slow and steady is a better course.

Ed

+1 to this. Slow and steady is better.

Ok I know your just being facetious to make a point Ed but come on. A +20 str belt is crazy in any game modeled off d&d. +6 is even probably to powerful but we already have +7 belts.

The kilt is currently sitting at +5 so 2-3 str levels, and a lot of people are still saying they'd rather keep the components. To me at least that's a problem. +6 isn't going any further, it's just raising the floor to the even 3 levels bonus all the component kilts already give you. IMO it does nothing to hurt the games longevity since we already have +6 kilts, it does on the other hand make everyone want to transmute the kilt which moves more tokens.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I thought the Kilt was perfect at +4, but I can live with +5. +4 and 5hp isn't too bad either. +6 is crazy too powerful. Remember this is part of the Eldritch Set too. If you really want +6 then I'd love to see some people still running with the UR Kilts.

Why is +6 crazy for an eldritched item but not crazy for an UR. Let's be honest, most of the classes wearing the UR kilts dont care about the negatives anyway.

But let's assume I have a tavernbane and am waiting to see what the eldritched kilt will look like. I see +5 pick one, what is there to convince me to get another 2 URs to make it happen? IMO a transmute has to be flat out better then that sum of its parts (as I think it has been literally every time there's been a transmute before) in order for most folks to spend the money.

Picc wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I thought the Kilt was perfect at +4, but I can live with +5. +4 and 5hp isn't too bad either. +6 is crazy too powerful. Remember this is part of the Eldritch Set too. If you really want +6 then I'd love to see some people still running with the UR Kilts.

Why is +6 crazy for an eldritched item but not crazy for an UR. Let's be honest, most of the classes wearing the UR kilts dont care about the negatives anyway.

But let's assume I have a tavernbane and am waiting to see what the eldritched kilt will look like. I see +5 pick one, what is there to convince me to get another 2 URs to make it happen? IMO a transmute has to be flat out better then that sum of its parts (as I think it has been literally every time there's been a transmute before) in order for most folks to spend the money.

Your forgetting the other Eldritch bennies that go with the transmuted Kilt which are good. And we could always nerf the existing OP UR Kilts if it would make you feel better.

What if we went the other direction on the Kilt? Bigger bonus and penalties. +9 to one stat, minus 4 (or 5) to the other 2.

Fiddy wrote: What if we went the other direction on the Kilt? Bigger bonus and penalties. +9 to one stat, minus 4 (or 5) to the other 2.

If so, I was a fool to make that Hammer.


I know, no sympathy from the Clerics.

What if we leave the kilt at +5, and give it a little something extra?

Like one extra use of Psychic power?

Or Immunity to Fear (you are already wearing a kilt, what more is there to be afraid of).

But I still, still say it should be any attribute. It doesn't hurt anything now, but helps keep it viable in 2020 when the mental attributes will become more useful.

I'm just curious-

For everyone that wants +6...

Would you choose +6 to exactly 1 stat? Meaning - you'd either have an Eldritch Strength kilt, Eldritch Dex Kilt, or Eldritch Con kilt. This kilt would give +6 to only that stat ever.

Would you pick that hypothetical over +5 choose before each dungeon?

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I thought the Kilt was perfect at +4, but I can live with +5. +4 and 5hp isn't too bad either. +6 is crazy too powerful. Remember this is part of the Eldritch Set too. If you really want +6 then I'd love to see some people still running with the UR Kilts.

Why is +6 crazy for an eldritched item but not crazy for an UR. Let's be honest, most of the classes wearing the UR kilts dont care about the negatives anyway.

But let's assume I have a tavernbane and am waiting to see what the eldritched kilt will look like. I see +5 pick one, what is there to convince me to get another 2 URs to make it happen? IMO a transmute has to be flat out better then that sum of its parts (as I think it has been literally every time there's been a transmute before) in order for most folks to spend the money.

Your forgetting the other Eldritch bennies that go with the transmuted Kilt which are good. And we could always nerf the existing OP UR Kilts if it would make you feel better.

I've already spoken to that once today, but I'll reiterate. I dont think token nerfs are in anyones interest as they undermine people confidence in the tokens they already own.

I'm also well aware of the eldritched bonus, I just dont think it applies to this argument.

Fiddy wrote: What if we went the other direction on the Kilt? Bigger bonus and penalties. +9 to one stat, minus 4 (or 5) to the other 2.

I dont feel like that would be a great idea. I agree that +6 is a very high bonus. Probably as other have pointed out too high but here we. So no I wouldn't be in favor of making the spread wider.

Xavon wrote: What if we leave the kilt at +5, and give it a little something extra?

Like one extra use of Psychic power?

Or Immunity to Fear (you are already wearing a kilt, what more is there to be afraid of).

But I still, still say it should be any attribute. It doesn't hurt anything now, but helps keep it viable in 2020 when the mental attributes will become more useful.

Personally I wouldn't. I suspect it might inadvertently make the kilt stronger while still feeling like a hard sell.

At this point, I don't think there is a solution that makes everyone happy. Or even everyone grudgingly accepting.


I'd say Jeff just needs to do what he thinks is best for the game.