TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images!

I’ve had some additional time to mull things over, and I’m ecstatic to be getting a legendary polymorph token. I would have been perfectly happy with just the UR, for sure. To be shown a build-defining Holy Grail of polymorphing I’ll get to work towards is like Christmas. Thank you, Jeff.

Ed cautioned me to be patient and reminded me that constructive feedback is taken seriously. So here are my two cents:

I’ll build the Legendary token regardless of whether it’s in the Neck slot or Waist slot. However, of those two, I would personally prefer to see it in the Waist slot. That’s not my #1 choice, though.

A lot of the other forum members have expressed some great points. The Neck slot has some of the best tokens vying for it. On one hand, it makes sense that these powerful legendary tokens should naturally fit there. There has never been a legendary Neck token, nor an Eldritch Neck token. This is another point that I’m sure was a consideration on how to restructure your plans.

But on the other hand- a lot of folks would prefer not to lose whatever shiny Neck token they currently have. We are talking about some of the most powerful URs printed to date. The Neck slot features a lot of diversity in builds - even within the same class. Putting legendary tokens here may end up leading to another ‘locked’ slot across all classes - similar to how the Boots slot has locked out for nearly every class.

So here is my ultimate wish - for the new Legendaries to occupy the back slot. The Back slot isn’t nearly as diverse as the neck slot currently is. Some folks own Pharacus’ GCoD, sure - but this would only affect the subset whom don’t own a Charm of Brooching. The charm is a popular candidate for reprint anyway and could spurn next year’s PYPs once the rush of kilts and nuggets wear off.

If the necklace stays as-is, my relic transmute will definitely make its way to TD HQ prior to next Gen Con. I think the art on it is beautiful. I just figured that it can’t hurt to put forth my ultimate wish.

Boilerplate wrote: For those who think the kilt would be too good at +6, can you explain why? Is it because of you are primarily concerned about inflated combat stats, AC, saves, or HP?

My theory is that the +5 camp consists of folks that worry most about impact on combat stats. Admittedly, +6 to str and dex (which impact combat stats) seems strong. And for these folks, the drop below 6 only costs a single point of hit/damage. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

My theory is that the +6 camp consists of folks that worry most about HP and don’t really care at all about hit, damage, AC, or saves. For these folks, the drop below 6 feels worse because it is 5 HP. Perhaps worth fighting over.

You’ve ignored people who are now forced to equip another DEX token or drop their relic or legendary hammer they just built.

If I am right...

You’re not. At least not 100%

Boilerplate wrote: For those who think the kilt would be too good at +6, can you explain why? Is it because of you are primarily concerned about inflated combat stats, AC, saves, or HP?

My theory is that the +5 camp consists of folks who worry most about impact on combat stats. Admittedly, +6 to str and dex (which impact combat stats) seems strong. And for these folks, the drop below 6 only costs a single point of hit/damage. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

My theory is that the +6 camp consists of folks who worry most about HP and don’t really care at all about hit, damage, AC, or saves. For these folks, the drop below 6 feels worse because it is 5 HP. Perhaps worth fighting over.

If I am right, then couldn’t we make everyone happy with a comprise kilt with +4 (or +5) to one stat and +5 HP? That way we can avoid inflating combat stats, AC, and saves while still allowing Tavernbane wearers to maintain status quo HP.

I could get behind +4 and +5 HP.

The power creep, particularly in newer slots, is the main concern.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote: We are going in circles at this point, so I'm getting off the merry go round.

It needs to stay a bead.

Ioun Stone.

Because it makes the choice more difficult? I can see that.

At +2 and free movement, as an Ioun Stone I don't see it getting used much.
At +3 and free movement, as an Ioun Stone, I think it would see a fair bit of use.

At +2 and free movement, as a bead, I do see it getting used quite often.
At +3 and free movement, as a bead, I think it would be the best possible option for a LONG time.

Yes, I'm a fan of slot competition. My big gripe though is that the slot just came out and we are already closing the slot off with a BIS Token. Would rather see a few years of development of different Beads at the lower levels (including UR) before a Relic hits. Sure TD can still do this and the lower level players will still have options but for the higher level players that buy lots of Tokens any UR's will likely be a waste to print. Unless of course Jeff opens up another Bead slot....

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: For those who think the kilt would be too good at +6, can you explain why? Is it because of you are primarily concerned about inflated combat stats, AC, saves, or HP?

My theory is that the +5 camp consists of folks who worry most about impact on combat stats. Admittedly, +6 to str and dex (which impact combat stats) seems strong. And for these folks, the drop below 6 only costs a single point of hit/damage. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

My theory is that the +6 camp consists of folks who worry most about HP and don’t really care at all about hit, damage, AC, or saves. For these folks, the drop below 6 feels worse because it is 5 HP. Perhaps worth fighting over.

If I am right, then couldn’t we make everyone happy with a comprise kilt with +4 (or +5) to one stat and +5 HP? That way we can avoid inflating combat stats, AC, and saves while still allowing Tavernbane wearers to maintain status quo HP.

I could get behind +4 and +5 HP.

The power creep, particularly in newer slots, is the main concern.

I was fine with just +4. It's Eldritch bennies often seemed to be ignored. But +4 +5HP might be ok. Would have to dwell on it. +6 is to OP.

Rob F wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: For those who think the kilt would be too good at +6, can you explain why? Is it because of you are primarily concerned about inflated combat stats, AC, saves, or HP?

My theory is that the +5 camp consists of folks who worry most about impact on combat stats. Admittedly, +6 to str and dex (which impact combat stats) seems strong. And for these folks, the drop below 6 only costs a single point of hit/damage. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

My theory is that the +6 camp consists of folks who worry most about HP and don’t really care at all about hit, damage, AC, or saves. For these folks, the drop below 6 feels worse because it is 5 HP. Perhaps worth fighting over.

If I am right, then couldn’t we make everyone happy with a comprise kilt with +4 (or +5) to one stat and +5 HP? That way we can avoid inflating combat stats, AC, and saves while still allowing Tavernbane wearers to maintain status quo HP.

I could get behind +4 and +5 HP.

The power creep, particularly in newer slots, is the main concern.

I was fine with just +4. It's Eldritch bennies often seemed to be ignored. But +4 +5HP might be ok. Would have to dwell on it. +6 is to OP.

Yeah, I’ve been trying to not overlook the eldritch bennies. I think the eldritch bennies are more impactful for the str and dex kilts because the drop below +6 only costs one combat stat and there are lots of ways to find a +1 hit or damage in the game (including the new eldritch damage bonus, which completely restores the lost point of damage from dropping below +6 str).

But I think the analysis is different for Tavernbane wearers because of the HP impact. Maybe I’m wrong, but it feels much harder to recoup 5 hp than 1 pt of damage. Right now I have one eldritch item (boots) and get L5 from the charm of heroism. If I transmute, I would lose 5 hp but free up a charm slot. The closest I can get to restoring the lost 5 hp in that slot is with Wil’s, but I am still down 1 hp net. Yes, I get an extra point of spell damage and improve my reflex saves by 2. But it still feels like a downer.

Which is why I like the compromise of +4 or +5 to one stat AND +5 hp (either through the kilt or as an eldritch set bonus). Fixed.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: For those who think the kilt would be too good at +6, can you explain why? Is it because of you are primarily concerned about inflated combat stats, AC, saves, or HP?

My theory is that the +5 camp consists of folks who worry most about impact on combat stats. Admittedly, +6 to str and dex (which impact combat stats) seems strong. And for these folks, the drop below 6 only costs a single point of hit/damage. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

My theory is that the +6 camp consists of folks who worry most about HP and don’t really care at all about hit, damage, AC, or saves. For these folks, the drop below 6 feels worse because it is 5 HP. Perhaps worth fighting over.

If I am right, then couldn’t we make everyone happy with a comprise kilt with +4 (or +5) to one stat and +5 HP? That way we can avoid inflating combat stats, AC, and saves while still allowing Tavernbane wearers to maintain status quo HP.

I could get behind +4 and +5 HP.

The power creep, particularly in newer slots, is the main concern.

+1 Its the power creep that bothers me.

I do think the UR kilts are way overpowered to begin with. We went from some things such as +3 HP and Freedom of Movement, -melee damage/ranged damage all the way to +6 to a stat with some negatives to counterbalance them. We have let the kilt cat out of the bag, so be it. I just don't want the power creep to keep going... for some the UR with +6 to a stat will stay as their main token and locked in, some it will be the eldritch kilt. So that slot would take something outrageously overpowered to compete with either one going foward, and we've had the leg slot 3 years now?

Daniel Mickey wrote: I guess I could get behind that, but we already have the FoP:Chipped Bull that allows anybody to heal themself and I didnt think the Ranger could perform any healing.

5th level Ranger gains a single heal spell.

All I have to say is that, if I had had this token on my very first run, our Rogue wouldn't have died in the first combat room. (Granted, even if this token had existed, I wouldn't have had it because...you know, first run. But whatever.)

Boilerplate wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: For those who think the kilt would be too good at +6, can you explain why? Is it because of you are primarily concerned about inflated combat stats, AC, saves, or HP?

My theory is that the +5 camp consists of folks who worry most about impact on combat stats. Admittedly, +6 to str and dex (which impact combat stats) seems strong. And for these folks, the drop below 6 only costs a single point of hit/damage. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

My theory is that the +6 camp consists of folks who worry most about HP and don’t really care at all about hit, damage, AC, or saves. For these folks, the drop below 6 feels worse because it is 5 HP. Perhaps worth fighting over.

If I am right, then couldn’t we make everyone happy with a comprise kilt with +4 (or +5) to one stat and +5 HP? That way we can avoid inflating combat stats, AC, and saves while still allowing Tavernbane wearers to maintain status quo HP.

I could get behind +4 and +5 HP.

The power creep, particularly in newer slots, is the main concern.

I was fine with just +4. It's Eldritch bennies often seemed to be ignored. But +4 +5HP might be ok. Would have to dwell on it. +6 is to OP.

Yeah, I’ve been trying to not overlook the eldritch bennies. I think the eldritch bennies are more impactful for the str and dex kilts because the drop below +6 only costs one combat stat and there are lots of ways to find a +1 hit or damage in the game (including the new eldritch damage bonus, which completely restores the lost point of damage from dropping below +6 str).

But I think the analysis is different for Tavernbane wearers because of the HP impact. Maybe I’m wrong, but it feels much harder to recoup 5 hp than 1 pt of damage. Right now I have one eldritch item (boots) and get L5 from the charm of heroism. If I transmute, I would lose 5 hp but free up a charm slot. The closest I can get to restoring the lost 5 hp in that slot is with Wil’s, but I am still down 1 hp net. Yes, I get an extra point of spell damage and improve my reflex saves by 2. But it still feels like a downer.

Which is why I like the compromise of +4 or +5 to one stat AND +5 hp (either through the kilt or as an eldritch set bonus). Fixed.

This is my issue Exactly I appreciate that it was again adjusted up to +5 but I lose 5HP at that unless I can find another way to boost Con. I also appreciate the Eldritch benefits but that shouldn't be a way to counter balance a token. I'm trying to think of another token that's meh by itself and then good (not Great) once combined with other tokens. There are obviously sets Charming, Defender, Mithrail, etc but none of the other Eldritch tokens require a second token to be BIS. As argued in other threads, the boots of the four winds were superior enough that even the newly proposed Relic wouldn't have been enough to get folks to change.

Shout out to Brad and any others using the current kilts to get enough Dex to use Thors. I really like what has been proposed by many people already, IFF we're not going to get +6 then +5 and +5HP seems like a good compromise to me.
If it seems overpowered, look at the SRoEC or the Ro7P both are pretty Kick-butt and SRoEC is probably BIS for most folks ...... WOW Ro7P is slotless so besides being one awesome token it doesn't even require a slot.

Now imagine for a second, with Ro7P if it were +1 in STR, DEX, & CON it would be pretty good (esp as slotless) but when you equip the boots all of a sudden you add the rest of the bonuses as well as the specialty class. This seems to be pretty close to the argument that +4 or +5 is OK because you're going to add it to something else to get a better bonus.

Also, as someone whose annual token budget is well, well the cost of a single PYP, I have to see the 3 and 4 star transmutes all look great!

I'm not personally interested in the Whetstone since I've already got a UR weapon, but I'll be keeping a very close eye on the transmute costs of the others.

-1 is -1, regardless of whatever other tokens you have. I can’t add something I’m already wearing.

The 5HP “compromise” may make you whole, but does nothing I care about. If the plan is to fix this by making me go to +4 DEX +5 HP then please, just leave it broken at +5 DEX.

I would not agree that SRoEC is BIS for most classes. Many were using it to get to 5th. With the changes to the Eldritch Set, I suspect there will be far fewer SRoEC used.

As a wizard type, I would much rather have Relsa's Ring, Greater Ring of Focus, and Ring of Spell Storing.
Melee types might choose Ring of the Eel and Ring of Frost.