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TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #253

I have a concern around the Eternal Ice Crystal.

It makes 1 handed melee weapons better than 2 handed melee weapons for all classes who can use them except Barbarian (who gets an inherent +4 damage bonus with 2 handed melee weapons).

All classes have access to perfectly fine one handed ranged weapons, so anyone who is using a melee offhand to fulfill a set bonus (other than the Orb of Might), can equip their shield in their ranged offhand, so that's not a drawback.

I appreciate the effort to bump up melee for the single puck melee classes.

I would suggest a few potential changes:

1. Make this token slotless with the effect of: +3 in melee if your melee offhand is empty or holding a two handed weapon

2. Make an "Eternal Flame" next year (this year?) which is slotless and grants +3(/4?/5?) to two handed melee weapons.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #254

Stop eating my posts forum (I needed to post this to get the last one to show up for some reason).
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #255

Arnold wrote: Out of curiosity - what do you guys think of releasing a cycle of these items that is defined by class? I mean, the Bowl and Rod of Persuasion are class-specific.


I believe the last Cleric-only UR was in 2011, and it’s been pretty much useless for five years, until 2017 when we started getting the option to clog up our builds with an otherwise useless Gloves or Charm.

And we just got our favorite Lenses taken away, so this year so far we’re DOWN a UR.

I’m at the point of giving up we’ll ever get one. So, I really wish everyone would just CTFO about this Tome and let us have a crumb, even if we share it with wizards and Druids.

I’m afraid that by the time we’re done wrangling over it, the damn thing will be useless.

If the only way to get what most of us really want (autopass) is to make it Cleric-only, then fine. It’s way past our turn. But for a tribute token, I think we’d want as wide an audience for it as possible.
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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #256

I realized that I hadn't voiced my opinion on the +2 Death Flail yet.

I really dislike the auto-kill feature.

A day may come when a barbarian manages to do this in two different combat rooms during the same run.

I won't presume to know what's fun for others, but I know that I would have a wretched time if that happened. If it were my first year, I know for a fact that I wouldn't come back.

Now, even if it happened today - and even if it were achieved by the barbarian in my own group, I'd be really disappointed. I'd feel like I was robbed 1/7 of my $78.

Heck, I'm looking at getting a Charm of Awareness because I hate losing even a turn in combat.

I'm going to put my vote with the others that are lobbying to take the auto-kill off.

My proposed solution would be to give a flat damage bonus for sliding a natural 20 on the first hit. Maybe +20. That would be 44+ damage. I think that could let you remove the "rooms 1-6" text.

Note that I realize Quivering Palm can have the same effect. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #257

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Arnold wrote: I realized that I hadn't voiced my opinion on the +2 Death Flail yet.

I really dislike the auto-kill feature.

A day may come when a barbarian manages to do this in two different combat rooms during the same run.

I won't presume to know what's fun for others, but I know that I would have a wretched time if that happened. If it were my first year, I know for a fact that I wouldn't come back.

Now, even if it happened today - and even if it were achieved by the barbarian in my own group, I'd be really disappointed. I'd feel like I was robbed 1/7 of my $78.

Heck, I'm looking at getting a Charm of Awareness because I hate losing even a turn in combat.

I'm going to put my vote with the others that are lobbying to take the auto-kill off.

My proposed solution would be to give a flat damage bonus for sliding a natural 20 on the first hit. Maybe +20. That would be 44+ damage. I think that could let you remove the "rooms 1-6" text.

Note that I realize Quivering Palm can have the same effect. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either.


Generally agreed.

What if it just let the Barb Crit monsters that are immune, and added +5 damage on 20?
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #258

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Arnold wrote: Out of curiosity - what do you guys think of releasing a cycle of these items that is defined by class? I mean, the Bowl and Rod of Persuasion are class-specific.


I believe the last Cleric-only UR was in 2011, and it’s been pretty much useless for five years, until 2017 when we started getting the option to clog up our builds with an otherwise useless Gloves or Charm.

And we just got our favorite Lenses taken away, so this year so far we’re DOWN a UR.

I’m at the point of giving up we’ll ever get one. So, I really wish everyone would just CTFO about this Tome and let us have a crumb, even if we share it with wizards and Druids.

I’m afraid that by the time we’re done wrangling over it, the damn thing will be useless.

If the only way to get what most of us really want (autopass) is to make it Cleric-only, then fine. It’s way past our turn. But for a tribute token, I think we’d want as wide an audience for it as possible.


I'd be a fan of Clerics getting a skill check bypass token this year. Charm of Quick Strike as-proposed doesn't seem to be getting love from much of anyone. I think that'd be a great one to bump to get the clerics something
too.

I guess my stance has shifted from anti, to "let's split the classes up".
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #259

Xavon wrote:

Arnold wrote: I realized that I hadn't voiced my opinion on the +2 Death Flail yet.

I really dislike the auto-kill feature.

A day may come when a barbarian manages to do this in two different combat rooms during the same run.

I won't presume to know what's fun for others, but I know that I would have a wretched time if that happened. If it were my first year, I know for a fact that I wouldn't come back.

Now, even if it happened today - and even if it were achieved by the barbarian in my own group, I'd be really disappointed. I'd feel like I was robbed 1/7 of my $78.

Heck, I'm looking at getting a Charm of Awareness because I hate losing even a turn in combat.

I'm going to put my vote with the others that are lobbying to take the auto-kill off.

My proposed solution would be to give a flat damage bonus for sliding a natural 20 on the first hit. Maybe +20. That would be 44+ damage. I think that could let you remove the "rooms 1-6" text.

Note that I realize Quivering Palm can have the same effect. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either.


Generally agreed.

What if it just let the Barb Crit monsters that are immune, and added +5 damage on 20?


Oh, that's an important note. It should be able to bypass crit immunity.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #260

Xavon wrote:

Arnold wrote: I realized that I hadn't voiced my opinion on the +2 Death Flail yet.

I really dislike the auto-kill feature.

A day may come when a barbarian manages to do this in two different combat rooms during the same run.

I won't presume to know what's fun for others, but I know that I would have a wretched time if that happened. If it were my first year, I know for a fact that I wouldn't come back.

Now, even if it happened today - and even if it were achieved by the barbarian in my own group, I'd be really disappointed. I'd feel like I was robbed 1/7 of my $78.

Heck, I'm looking at getting a Charm of Awareness because I hate losing even a turn in combat.

I'm going to put my vote with the others that are lobbying to take the auto-kill off.

My proposed solution would be to give a flat damage bonus for sliding a natural 20 on the first hit. Maybe +20. That would be 44+ damage. I think that could let you remove the "rooms 1-6" text.

Note that I realize Quivering Palm can have the same effect. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either.


Generally agreed.

What if it just let the Barb Crit monsters that are immune, and added +5 damage on 20?


I agree with this also. Where's the fun in combat for the rest of the group if the Barbarian kills it on the first slide? That's basically 10 minutes of waiting around for the next room for everyone any time this token instakills.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #261

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Arnold wrote: I realized that I hadn't voiced my opinion on the +2 Death Flail yet.

I really dislike the auto-kill feature.

A day may come when a barbarian manages to do this in two different combat rooms during the same run.

I won't presume to know what's fun for others, but I know that I would have a wretched time if that happened. If it were my first year, I know for a fact that I wouldn't come back.

Now, even if it happened today - and even if it were achieved by the barbarian in my own group, I'd be really disappointed. I'd feel like I was robbed 1/7 of my $78.

Heck, I'm looking at getting a Charm of Awareness because I hate losing even a turn in combat.

I'm going to put my vote with the others that are lobbying to take the auto-kill off.

My proposed solution would be to give a flat damage bonus for sliding a natural 20 on the first hit. Maybe +20. That would be 44+ damage. I think that could let you remove the "rooms 1-6" text.

Note that I realize Quivering Palm can have the same effect. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either.


Generally agreed.

What if it just let the Barb Crit monsters that are immune, and added +5 damage on 20?


I agree with this also. Where's the fun in combat for the rest of the group if the Barbarian kills it on the first slide? That's basically 10 minutes of waiting around for the next room for everyone any time this token instakills.


If there is an auto kill feature it should be like the one before it (Quivering Palm). Replace one of the damage numbers with a symbol of some sort and make the auto kill function only if a 20 is slid AND the symbol faces the damage dot on the board.
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Last edit: by Rob F.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #262

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Arnold wrote: I realized that I hadn't voiced my opinion on the +2 Death Flail yet.

I really dislike the auto-kill feature.

A day may come when a barbarian manages to do this in two different combat rooms during the same run.

I won't presume to know what's fun for others, but I know that I would have a wretched time if that happened. If it were my first year, I know for a fact that I wouldn't come back.

Now, even if it happened today - and even if it were achieved by the barbarian in my own group, I'd be really disappointed. I'd feel like I was robbed 1/7 of my $78.

Heck, I'm looking at getting a Charm of Awareness because I hate losing even a turn in combat.

I'm going to put my vote with the others that are lobbying to take the auto-kill off.

My proposed solution would be to give a flat damage bonus for sliding a natural 20 on the first hit. Maybe +20. That would be 44+ damage. I think that could let you remove the "rooms 1-6" text.

Note that I realize Quivering Palm can have the same effect. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either.


Generally agreed.

What if it just let the Barb Crit monsters that are immune, and added +5 damage on 20?


I agree with this also. Where's the fun in combat for the rest of the group if the Barbarian kills it on the first slide? That's basically 10 minutes of waiting around for the next room for everyone any time this token instakills.


If there is an auto kill feature it should be like the one before it (Quivering Palm). Replace one of the damage numbers with a symbol of some sort and make the auto kill function only if a 20 is slid AND the symbol faces the damage dot on the board.


Maybe change it to be like the Long Spear of Dragon slaying, where it only kills one type of monster? And needs to line up with the damage wheel symbol?
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #263

RE: flail-

I vote we leave the Quivering Palm as a unique effect. I don't want to dilute that away from Monks, as it's really one of the coolest things they can do in D&D, probably in TD as well.

Doesn't everyone cheer and high five when a team member crits? I know I do.

Wouldn't it be weird if the barbarian critted and everyone rolled their eyes then proceeded to wait ~ 10 minutes?

How about we borrow something else from Monks- what if a 20 on the first slide stunned the monster instead? Still very powerful and a cool effect to have attached to your weapon.
Last edit: by Arnold.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #264

Matt Goodman wrote: Regarding fixed fate.

I will create an actual build; however, my main point with the previous build is that by investing very little, a ranger, who yes wants to do melee, can create a build that is mostly geared for melee and still do a ton in range. (I know I'm not explaining myself well enough, I'm too worked up about this right now).

Two other arguments to hold us over. I read that people were comparing fixed fate to Thor's. Please reread that sentence. This token is so good, people are comparing it, an ultra-rare, to Thor's, a legendary! If that doesn't concern people, I don't know what will.

Second argument. You're taking away design space. Taking away choices. Now, even though they won't do as much damage, a pure melee character can easily engage in ranged combat. There is now no (or very little) downside. They don't have to wonder or have a plan if ranged attack is necessary. I just really believe this token is bad for the game in the long run.


I think you're doing a good job advocating your position, and I certainly am willing to be wrong on mine. Last year I thought the Thor's Hammers were OK, in retrospect I think I'd have preferred some changes - so I could be wrong here too.

Let me try to take a stab at 'breaking' this token - and lets see how the results pan out.

"Breaking" means: achieve a superior result with much fewer resources than would otherwise be possible.

The scenario I have in mind is: "What if I wanted to play Nightmare, could I come up with a competitive Nightmare build that features Fixed Fate and uses much less resources than would otherwise be needed for that goal."

I'll consider a Dwarf Fighter for this purpose.

To be effective on Nightmare I'd recommend you need:

1. The ability to hit monsters with an AC of ~24 (~28 for bosses).
2. The ability to deal an average of ~15 damage a round (if each party member does this you can kill NM monsters in 3-4 rounds)3
3. An AC of around 26 (this means monsters are about 50/50 to hit you).
4. Saves of around +12 (this means your about 50/50 to save).

Let's try to build up a Dwarf Fighter using minimal resources to get to this goal. Let's assume a +2/+4 bardsong is always in effect, and players are getting +1 to-hit from Cleric bless/prayer or other effects.


Let's build up the Dwarf Fighter with the minimum resources required to hit these build goals above using Fixed Fate Lt. Crossbow, and then see how those resources compare to a melee or other ranged weapon build.

1. Need to hit monsters with an AC of ~24-28. This is addressed with the Fixed Fate alone - no further effort required.

I'm going to assume the player can hit a 15+ 60% of the time, and that they can add +5% for each lower number to a maximum of 90% (e.g. a 10+ would be 85% of the time, a 1+ would be 90%).

Resources used: 1 UR

2. Deal 15 damage a round. With their 60% hit chance, the player will need to have an average damage of 25 per round.

Fixed Fate damage wheel: 6.66
Bardsong: 4
UR - Ring of the Yeti: 3
R - Bracers of Archery: 2
R - Runestone: 1
UR - Gloves of Greater Archery: 4
UR Boots of the West Wind: 3

Total: 23.66 - close enough.

Resources used: 3 URs , 1 rare, and 1 consumable rare.

There are some other options too:
UR Quiver of Annointment + 3-4x Rare Oils: 4
Relic: Draco-Lich Claw Charm: 2
ER Boots of the Four Winds: 5
R 10x Rare Arrows: 3

3. Get AC to 26:

Base AC 11
Defender Set 3x Rare: 13
Amulet of Natural Armor: 2

Resources used: 4 rares

4. Get to +12 saves:

Base saves: Fort 7, Refx: 2, Will: 1
R Defender Helm: +1
R +2 Cloak of Resistance: +2
R Ioun Stone Beryl Prism: +1
R Charm of Enlightenment: +4 Will
R Ring of Reflexes: +4 Refx
R Boots of Agility: +2 DEX -> +1 Refx
R Earcuff of Intellect: +1 Will
Volunteer Rare: Ioun Stone Tanzanite Sphere: +1 all

Final saves: Fort: 12, Refx: 12, Will: 11 (close enough)

Resources used: 6 rares, 1 volunteer rare (Defender helm accounted for above)

So!

We have a Nightmare Capable Dwarf Fighter with:

4 URs
11 Rares
1 Volunteer rare
1 Consumable Rare

(This fighter is 4th level)

This Fighter has a ranged to-hit bonus of: +1 from the card +1 from Dex bonuses, +2 from Bardsong, +1 from bless = +5.

If they had a different UR ranged weapon, it could be a +2, giving them a total of +6 to hit. This would require them to be sliding 18s or so, and 20s on bosses. So - Fixed Fate is the best ranged weapon they could have.



Now let's sanity check: Could we get a better build for Melee with the same or fewer resources?

The Defender Set and Saves items will basically remain the same, so we're left with 4 URs, 1 Rare, and 1 Rare consumable to work with.


For a melee build instead we'd do something like:

1. Add a rare +2 STR belt
2. Add a UR +5 STR gloves
3. Add a rare lenses of Hiemdall sight (+1 to hit)
4. Swap rare Neck for Exalted +4 DEX Neck
5. Add Rare Ring of the Bliss
6. Add Rare +1 2 handed weapon
7. Add Rare fiendish charm
8. Swap rare +2 melee damage bracers for +2 ranged damage bracers
9. R Fiendish Charm + UC Earcuff of the Bliss
10. R melee consumable runestone +1 to damage
11. Swap Rare Boots of Agility for UR +5 Sonic Boots

We're at +10 to hit before bardsong, +12 with bardsong, +13 with Bless.

So we're sliding to hit at ~+11, +15 vs bosses (same as fixed fate).

Our damage is: 18+ a damage wheel on a 2 handed rare.


So, this build gets a better to-hit, similar damage, and costs:

2 fewer URs
1 more Exalted
3 more rares
1 more uncommon

Since I think 2 URs is worth a lot more than 1 exalted, 3 rares, and an uncommon we could throw in some other stuff like maybe a +2 weapon instead, or a +4 STR belt.



So - I think this item today:

1. Doesn't break things.

2. However, is the best UR ranged weapon for min-maxing lowest gear for nightmare.


It might be a shade too good because of #2.

It might become a problem if we get a few more items like a +3 ranged damage charm, a slotless +1 to ranged damage, a ranged damage belt, etc.
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