TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

Rob F wrote: Regarding the Tome (and disclaimer up front I've only skimmed the posts)

- I didn't like the auto skill check bypass feature, at all. Why? Because if you don't want to do the check your spells still work. It's a bonus if you do and get it right. Don't like the memory test? Well hate to say it but that's part of how Jeff designed the game. Don't do it. Or don't play that class. Your spell still works. I don't see why this is even a big deal. It's a damn good slotless Token, people should be happy.

- That being said, Jeff set a skill check breaking precedent with the Rogue's Crowbar. But at least there's a negative associated with using it. You want a hall pass on your skill check? Then Bam!!! Take some damage. No free lunch for you. And if Rogues decide not to do their skill check at all - no clue, no treasure, you get a big fat bag of nothing. So casters are already ahead of the game when deciding to do nothing.

- But if Jeff wants to lend a hand to the memory impaired casters (and yes I'm one of them, my memory sucks big time) then give them the same conditions as the Crowbar. Auto pass - Bam!!! Take a lot of damage. Or instead let them retry the check and each time they do and guess wrong - Bam!! Take a little damage. No free lunches!!!

Heck, the precedent for freely bypassing skill checks predates the Crowbar. The Bowl of Spirit Site lets the Druid freely bypass either the Rogue or Bard check 1/game. It is slotless. And it does no damage to the Druid.

Why would someone need to take "a lot of damage" to do this, when the bonus to their spell that we're talking about is around 3 points?

Do I think the Tome should have the free casting added back in? No, not if it keeps the +2. Do I think it is ok to have a slotless token for spellcasters to bypass their skill checks? Absolutely. Casters already get the bonus for free in Grind, and it doesn't cause problems there.

Rob F wrote: Regarding the Tome (and disclaimer up front I've only skimmed the posts)

- I didn't like the auto skill check bypass feature, at all. Why? Because if you don't want to do the check your spells still work. It's a bonus if you do and get it right. Don't like the memory test? Well hate to say it but that's part of how Jeff designed the game. Don't do it. Or don't play that class. Your spell still works. I don't see why this is even a big deal. It's a damn good slotless Token, people should be happy.

- That being said, Jeff set a skill check breaking precedent with the Rogue's Crowbar. But at least there's a negative associated with using it. You want a hall pass on your skill check? Then Bam!!! Take some damage. No free lunch for you. And if Rogues decide not to do their skill check at all - no clue, no treasure, you get a big fat bag of nothing. So casters are already ahead of the game when deciding to do nothing.

- But if Jeff wants to lend a hand to the memory impaired casters (and yes I'm one of them, my memory sucks big time) then give them the same conditions as the Crowbar. Auto pass - Bam!!! Take a lot of damage. Or instead let them retry the check and each time they do and guess wrong - Bam!! Take a little damage. No free lunches!!!

You also need to take into consideration those of us who have been playing wizard for a long time and I have absolutely no problem with the school check but have to take precious time away from the DM in nightmare or epic he has to choose assemble then you identify at that time is better spent in combat. So I feel as if I have to forgo getting the better of my spell because I don’t want to take that time to do the spellcheck which I know I will pass. This seems like a good way for me to be able to get the full effect of my spell without having to take precious time away From everyone else

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote: Regarding the Tome (and disclaimer up front I've only skimmed the posts)

- I didn't like the auto skill check bypass feature, at all. Why? Because if you don't want to do the check your spells still work. It's a bonus if you do and get it right. Don't like the memory test? Well hate to say it but that's part of how Jeff designed the game. Don't do it. Or don't play that class. Your spell still works. I don't see why this is even a big deal. It's a damn good slotless Token, people should be happy.

- That being said, Jeff set a skill check breaking precedent with the Rogue's Crowbar. But at least there's a negative associated with using it. You want a hall pass on your skill check? Then Bam!!! Take some damage. No free lunch for you. And if Rogues decide not to do their skill check at all - no clue, no treasure, you get a big fat bag of nothing. So casters are already ahead of the game when deciding to do nothing.

- But if Jeff wants to lend a hand to the memory impaired casters (and yes I'm one of them, my memory sucks big time) then give them the same conditions as the Crowbar. Auto pass - Bam!!! Take a lot of damage. Or instead let them retry the check and each time they do and guess wrong - Bam!! Take a little damage. No free lunches!!!

Heck, the precedent for freely bypassing skill checks predates the Crowbar. The Bowl of Spirit Site lets the Druid freely bypass either the Rogue or Bard check 1/game. It is slotless. And it does no damage to the Druid.

Why would someone need to take "a lot of damage" to do this, when the bonus to their spell that we're talking about is around 3 points?

Do I think the Tome should have the free casting added back in? No, not if it keeps the +2. Do I think it is ok to have a slotless token for spellcasters to bypass their skill checks? Absolutely. Casters already get the bonus for free in Grind, and it doesn't cause problems there.

Exactly, the Rogue skill test and these skill checks aren't equivalent. The Rogue skill test is all or nothing, if they fail it they don't get the clue or token. These skill checks just add a few points of damage or healing to the spell.

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote: Regarding the Tome (and disclaimer up front I've only skimmed the posts)

- I didn't like the auto skill check bypass feature, at all. Why? Because if you don't want to do the check your spells still work. It's a bonus if you do and get it right. Don't like the memory test? Well hate to say it but that's part of how Jeff designed the game. Don't do it. Or don't play that class. Your spell still works. I don't see why this is even a big deal. It's a damn good slotless Token, people should be happy.

- That being said, Jeff set a skill check breaking precedent with the Rogue's Crowbar. But at least there's a negative associated with using it. You want a hall pass on your skill check? Then Bam!!! Take some damage. No free lunch for you. And if Rogues decide not to do their skill check at all - no clue, no treasure, you get a big fat bag of nothing. So casters are already ahead of the game when deciding to do nothing.

- But if Jeff wants to lend a hand to the memory impaired casters (and yes I'm one of them, my memory sucks big time) then give them the same conditions as the Crowbar. Auto pass - Bam!!! Take a lot of damage. Or instead let them retry the check and each time they do and guess wrong - Bam!! Take a little damage. No free lunches!!!

Heck, the precedent for freely bypassing skill checks predates the Crowbar. The Bowl of Spirit Site lets the Druid freely bypass either the Rogue or Bard check 1/game. It is slotless. And it does no damage to the Druid.

Why would someone need to take "a lot of damage" to do this, when the bonus to their spell that we're talking about is around 3 points?

Do I think the Tome should have the free casting added back in? No, not if it keeps the +2. Do I think it is ok to have a slotless token for spellcasters to bypass their skill checks? Absolutely. Casters already get the bonus for free in Grind, and it doesn't cause problems there.

Exactly, the Rogue skill test and these skill checks aren't equivalent. The Rogue skill test is all or nothing, if they fail it they don't get the clue or token. These skill checks just add a few points of damage or healing to the spell.

Not to mention that you can just guess, and still have a chance of passing, while the rogue box you actually have to try.

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote: Regarding the Tome (and disclaimer up front I've only skimmed the posts)

- I didn't like the auto skill check bypass feature, at all. Why? Because if you don't want to do the check your spells still work. It's a bonus if you do and get it right. Don't like the memory test? Well hate to say it but that's part of how Jeff designed the game. Don't do it. Or don't play that class. Your spell still works. I don't see why this is even a big deal. It's a damn good slotless Token, people should be happy.

- That being said, Jeff set a skill check breaking precedent with the Rogue's Crowbar. But at least there's a negative associated with using it. You want a hall pass on your skill check? Then Bam!!! Take some damage. No free lunch for you. And if Rogues decide not to do their skill check at all - no clue, no treasure, you get a big fat bag of nothing. So casters are already ahead of the game when deciding to do nothing.

- But if Jeff wants to lend a hand to the memory impaired casters (and yes I'm one of them, my memory sucks big time) then give them the same conditions as the Crowbar. Auto pass - Bam!!! Take a lot of damage. Or instead let them retry the check and each time they do and guess wrong - Bam!! Take a little damage. No free lunches!!!

Heck, the precedent for freely bypassing skill checks predates the Crowbar. The Bowl of Spirit Site lets the Druid freely bypass either the Rogue or Bard check 1/game. It is slotless. And it does no damage to the Druid.

Why would someone need to take "a lot of damage" to do this, when the bonus to their spell that we're talking about is around 3 points?

Do I think the Tome should have the free casting added back in? No, not if it keeps the +2. Do I think it is ok to have a slotless token for spellcasters to bypass their skill checks? Absolutely. Casters already get the bonus for free in Grind, and it doesn't cause problems there.

Great point about the Bowl. Totally forgot about that one. And good point about the weak bonus. I've always thought the bonus for a pass should give a greater benefit but that is another topic. Maybe have a separate Token then that let's people auto pass the skill check like the Bowl. Think I saw a few people mention that. Still not a fan but your right Jeff opened the door. However I don't know if it should be slotless or come without a negative. I haven't run numbers but if people are doubling and MEC all their spells and whatnot the bonus could grow. And the Bowl was just for a clue, didn't affect combat.

Rogue check can also give you a material reward. Rogues only take the clue on the first pass, and often not even then when the party is doing fine or they have the Libram.

Look at the lengths to which players go for an extra TC. 10 HP is a bargain for a TC. But to add 3 pts to a heal? That’s absurd.

Autopass doesn’t increase the max like focus does. It just ensures the max.

If anything, lose the focus.

Oh, and Bowl allows auto-monster-Lore, so it does affect combat.

Mike Steele wrote: +2 Holy Avengers: It kind of seems like this should be saved for next year, when the transmute is available, so this is orderable as a PYP for the entire time the Relic is allowed to be made. By releasing it now, it will be out of print while the Relic is still open to be made.

This, very much this. Though I am also hoping that both the old 2 handed holy sword and the Celestial long sword will be included as ingredient options...

Mike Steele wrote: Charm of Quick Strike: Maybe the odds of getting that bonus combat slide should increase if there are more than one Charm of Quick Strike outfitted in the party? As it is, it will feel like a waste of a slot if multiple people come with it outfitted.

I thought only the Charm wearer got the extra attack. In that case, multiple Charms means that each wearer gets to attack in the surprise round.

Mike Steele wrote: Cloak of Shadowskin: I think this is still overpowered. It is only +1 Saves less than the Greater Cloak or Druegar's Cloak, and I think the ability to stop a Melee or Missile hit is worth more than +1 Saves. Maybe change the saves portion to just +1.

It is only once per game, and you do have to be targeted. But I do see what you are saying.

What if it gave a Reflex save to negate a Melee or Missile attack, once per game?

Mike Steele wrote: Earcuff of the Phalanx: I think this is a good token - even if only one is outfitted, +2 AC seems pretty powerful. Although - is it overpowered if all 10 are outfitted? At that point, it's equivalent to a UR +1 Tower Shield, which seems pretty high.

It is strong, but the Earcuff slot has has some really good choices, so locking a full party in to one each could be tough.

Maybe it could start at +1 for one, and require at least 2 for the +2?

Mike Steele wrote: Eternal Ice Crystal: Should this have a damage wheel in case the Ranger outfits it? Otherwise, it is unusable for the Ranger. Although, I think it probably should be unusable to the Ranger (and Monk I guess), or it gives +3 damage to both attacks, increasing the damage advantage the Ranger has.

Is it really that different than the Orb of Might (+1 to hit and damage). Or using the Stu's Stein offhand and drinking a buff potion?

Mike Steele wrote: Fixed Fate Lt Crossbow: I think this token has the potential to negatively impact future Dungeon design, by auto hitting in situations where ranged is restricted. The Damage Wheel is also too high for a light Crossbow. Maybe it would be OK if it says no "to hit" or "damage" modifiers are applied to it. It might be best to just reprint the +2 Mighty Short Bow.

I agree that the wording needs to be clarified. It should be "always hits if the slid value (unmodified) is 15-20 and ranged combat is possible", or something like that.

Mike Steele wrote: Gregor's Tome of Focus: I MUCH prefer the version that includes the auto-pass on skill check. I think that makes it a very unique and worthy token, instead of just a Focus token. Make the auto-pass portion optional, so that those that want to do the skill test still can. Win-Win.

What if its was "Auto succeed any skill test OR +2 to spell healing/damage on a successful skill test"?

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, thanks again for letting us all provide input, and extra thanks for listening to that input.

Indeed

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: +2 Holy Avengers: It kind of seems like this should be saved for next year, when the transmute is available, so this is orderable as a PYP for the entire time the Relic is allowed to be made. By releasing it now, it will be out of print while the Relic is still open to be made.

This, very much this. Though I am also hoping that both the old 2 handed holy sword and the Celestial long sword will be included as ingredient options...

Mike Steele wrote: Gregor's Tome of Focus: I MUCH prefer the version that includes the auto-pass on skill check. I think that makes it a very unique and worthy token, instead of just a Focus token. Make the auto-pass portion optional, so that those that want to do the skill test still can. Win-Win.

What if its was "Auto succeed any skill test OR +2 to spell healing/damage on a successful skill test"?

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, thanks again for letting us all provide input, and extra thanks for listening to that input.

Indeed

I'm also hoping that at least the +2 Holy Great Sword is an alternate ingredient in the recipe.

Regarding the Tome recommendation, I don't think that would change anything. Instead of failing or skipping the test and losing three potential points of healing/damage, you'd be skipping the test and losing two potential points of healing/damage. My preference that, if it has a bonus, it's available whether you skip the test or not. Otherwise it defeats the whole point of skipping the test.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Rob F wrote: Regarding the Tome (and disclaimer up front I've only skimmed the posts)

- I didn't like the auto skill check bypass feature, at all. Why? Because if you don't want to do the check your spells still work. It's a bonus if you do and get it right. Don't like the memory test? Well hate to say it but that's part of how Jeff designed the game. Don't do it. Or don't play that class. Your spell still works. I don't see why this is even a big deal. It's a damn good slotless Token, people should be happy.

- That being said, Jeff set a skill check breaking precedent with the Rogue's Crowbar. But at least there's a negative associated with using it. You want a hall pass on your skill check? Then Bam!!! Take some damage. No free lunch for you. And if Rogues decide not to do their skill check at all - no clue, no treasure, you get a big fat bag of nothing. So casters are already ahead of the game when deciding to do nothing.

- But if Jeff wants to lend a hand to the memory impaired casters (and yes I'm one of them, my memory sucks big time) then give them the same conditions as the Crowbar. Auto pass - Bam!!! Take a lot of damage. Or instead let them retry the check and each time they do and guess wrong - Bam!! Take a little damage. No free lunches!!!

You also need to take into consideration those of us who have been playing wizard for a long time and I have absolutely no problem with the school check but have to take precious time away from the DM in nightmare or epic he has to choose assemble then you identify at that time is better spent in combat. So I feel as if I have to forgo getting the better of my spell because I don’t want to take that time to do the spellcheck which I know I will pass. This seems like a good way for me to be able to get the full effect of my spell without having to take precious time away From everyone else

Yeah - if I were malevolent I'd wish the "keep skill checks" group forever encounter Nightmare parties with multiple spell casters and each round of combat goes like this:

... BEGIN COMEDY SKETCH ...

1. Sliders slide - 35 seconds.

2. Uh-oh, Cleric is casting, DM fumbles around, find beads, thinks for a moment, says: show me Love. Player thinks... uh that one. No wait! That one. DM says: correct! DM puts beads away - 40 seconds.

3. Wizard: I shoot at the darkness with Magic Missile!. DM, turns around - show me... Limbo. Wizard confidently points at the board - there! DM, hmm let's see... walks over to board. Turns it around, correct! Walks back to table. - 50 seconds.

4. Bard: Lalalala I'm using Lyre of Lore, I lalalala want to do the lore check. DM ok... pats left pouch pocket, pats right pouch pocket, pulls out Druid leaves, puts them back, pats back pocket, pulls out Bard symbols. What is this: X->|? Bard... its.... lalalala... it's... Air? DM. Sorry. DM turns back to table to calculate damage and puts away Bard runes. Bard - hang on, I've got a token, wait a minute... bard fishes though pockets for 15 seconds, shows Tome of Recall. DM takes token, moves under light, reads it, says: Have you used this before today? Bard says: Lalalala nope - first time. DM hands back token, pulls out Druid leaves, puts them back, pulls out Bard symbols says: What is this: #/\@? Bard says.... Fire! DM says: Correct! The clue is: This Ice demon is immune to cold damage. - 2 minutes

5. DM Turns to the table and calculates, forgetting that the Fighter applied Oil of Holiness and the Monk drank a potion of Bull's Strength because of all the spell casting bother. Calculates damage - 1.5 minutes


Second round, much the same as the first - the horns blow - you all take 8 push damage!

... END COMEDY SKETCH ...


Since I'm not malevolent I hope in nightmare parties your spellcasters continue to skip skill checks entirely, thus accepting a -3 modifier to some of their actions for the good of the party.

Fun and annoying questions for Fixed Fate:

How does this interact with Charm of Shadow Shot?

How is it determined if the Charm of Shadow Shot is "a hit"?

Does the Charm pick up the same 15+ auto-hit property of the Fixed Fate?

If not, is it just the bare to-hit bonus listed on the card?

I assume it is just the bonus, but I'm checking.

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: +2 Holy Avengers: It kind of seems like this should be saved for next year, when the transmute is available, so this is orderable as a PYP for the entire time the Relic is allowed to be made. By releasing it now, it will be out of print while the Relic is still open to be made.

This, very much this. Though I am also hoping that both the old 2 handed holy sword and the Celestial long sword will be included as ingredient options...

Mike Steele wrote: Gregor's Tome of Focus: I MUCH prefer the version that includes the auto-pass on skill check. I think that makes it a very unique and worthy token, instead of just a Focus token. Make the auto-pass portion optional, so that those that want to do the skill test still can. Win-Win.

What if its was "Auto succeed any skill test OR +2 to spell healing/damage on a successful skill test"?

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, thanks again for letting us all provide input, and extra thanks for listening to that input.

Indeed

I'm also hoping that at least the +2 Holy Great Sword is an alternate ingredient in the recipe.

Regarding the Tome recommendation, I don't think that would change anything. Instead of failing or skipping the test and losing three potential points of healing/damage, you'd be skipping the test and losing two potential points of healing/damage. My preference that, if it has a bonus, it's available whether you skip the test or not. Otherwise it defeats the whole point of skipping the test.

Right. You skip the test. You get three points that you might (probably?) would not have gotten otherwise. Still better than skipping the test completely; Or if you are confident, you can gamble. You might fail and get nothing, or you might succeed and get a bigger bonus.

The thing about just giving the bonus if one tries, is that the result doesn't feel different enough. Skip, get +3. Try and fail, get +2. Try and succeed, get +5 (total). I guess it's not bad.

What if it was (and we're getting a bit wordy here):

Auto succeed any skill test OR +1 to spell healing/damage and an addition +1 on a successful skill test

Then the spread is: Skip, get +3. Try and fail, get +1. Try and succeed, get +5 (total). Plus, it also gives a small boost to spells that don't have a skill test.

I still like the idea of skill-checks, but I get where the opposing side is coming from.

Out of curiosity - what do you guys think of releasing a cycle of these items that is defined by class? I mean, the Bowl and Rod of Persuasion are class-specific. One of the things that made the Tome feel OP to me is that it let so many classes have access.

And I think that Bard lore checks should stay off. Finding out weaknesses for free seems way more broken than +3 healing/damage on ~10 spells. Maybe that's why the Bard always had to remember more than the rest of the spell casting classes anyway.