TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

Adam Guay wrote: I thought the crossbow was to be Fixed Fate....which I thought of as no damage modifiers or bonuses to hit. Then you would have to slide a 15 or better and you only got the damage from the crossbow with no modifiers.

If the cross truly is un-modifiable in any way its much more ok.

That said I was reading the token as you just needed a final attack score of at least 15 to hit regardless of if the monster say had a 35 AC. I grant you that's probably wrong but let be honest it will be interpenetrated that way in the dungeon frequently.

Even so Jeff will need to be mindful of it when placing the 15-20 zones on all future combat boards (and maybe even deciding which old boards to bring out again).

Honestly I agree with Mike, it would probably be safer to just bring back the mighty shortbow this year.

Arnold wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: I thought the crossbow was to be Fixed Fate....which I thought of as no damage modifiers or bonuses to hit. Then you would have to slide a 15 or better and you only got the damage from the crossbow with no modifiers.

That would make sense to me.

"Fixed fate" = no modifiers. Either of them.

This would make the crossbow a fair accessible token for non ranged builds to deal an amount of damage while not breaking combats or stepping on top of a dex based builds ability to deal real damage with ranged.

galandros wrote: The ring of jealous heroism is strictly worse than the ring of heroism. If it's trying to mimic the neck from several years ago that have a level bump but you can't equip rings, I suggest to make this UR occupy a different slot.
Another suggestion, is if you really want to promote the Ring of Heroism again, use this Jealous Heroism as an ingredient for a new recipe to craft the Ring of Heroism. It gives newer players a token they can acquire to play 5th level, and then if they want to go down the rabbit hole they are well on their way to making the Ring of Heroism itself!

This is intended - Ring of Heroism is a Relc, and so should be better than a UR.

There has never been a UR level boost that didn't consume multiple slots or come as a set bonus from buying multiple URs.

Matt Goodman wrote: I want to throw out a question. If this token was reversed, where it was a melee weapon that guaranteed hit from 15-20, would there be any objections? I think everybody would be in uproar that it's way over-powered.

Yes, but melee is not ranged, so I'm not sure you can get very far from that as a starting point of analogy.


The difference is this:

It is achievable to get up to +28 melee damage bonus on URs and a few relics, and Boots of the Four Winds.

Whereas if you look at non-thrown ranged damage mods (which is the case in question), the best you can get without consumables is:

+4 from gloves
+2 from wrists
+2 from Darco-Lich
+1 from Holly Ring
+3 from new Ring of the Yeti
+5 from Boots of the Four Winds
= +17

Ranged damage is much less capable than melee.

The corresponding melee weapon would have to say:

You hit on a melee slide of 15+, may not be used with flurry of blows or in the ranger offhand, and the damage wheel has a -10 baked into it.

That token is not OP, in my opinion, and if there was an uproar it would be over why printing something so obviously worse than other UR melee weapon options.

Matt Goodman wrote: I want to throw out a question. If this token was reversed, where it was a melee weapon that guaranteed hit from 15-20, would there be any objections? I think everybody would be in uproar that it's way over-powered.

Yes, this past year the combats were different, requiring melee characters to take a turn climbing. Heck, this makes the room interesting! This makes the choices of your builds so much more crucial! If you go in only prepared to hit in melee, then of course you'll be disappointed! But don't complain that the dungeon was too hard, complain that you didn't prepare properly! I think it's EXTREMELY generous that melee fighters were allowed to take a turn to climb. It could have been easily made that only ranged attacks were permitted.

Some stat analysis for those who want it. You can get +22 in ranged damage without benefiting dex:

(Note, none of these are Legendary!)
Ranger: +4
Bot4W: +5
Draco charm: +2
Gloves of Supreme Archery: +4
Bracers of Archery: +2
Holly Ring: +1
Ring of the Yeti: +3
Eldritch bonus (kilt): +1
(add in Charm of Shadow Shot for 6 more if you want)



Now, you still have a kilt, belt, neck, charms, Ioun Stones, ears, eyes, etc. for adding to strength:

A quick build can get to +18 to hit, +22 damage in melee without using Legendary tokens.

starting ranger

STR: 36
DEX: 19
CON: 15
INT: 11
WIS: 13
CHA: 13

Melee:
Hit: 18 Damage: 22 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 5 Damage: 22 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Health: 38

Melee Mainhand: +2 Deadly Drow Blood Mace
Melee Offhand: +2 Viper Strike Fang
Ranged Mainhand: +1 Bliss Long Bow
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Empty
Right Ear: Empty
Neck: Medallion of Valhalla
Torso: Blessed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Archery
Hands: Gloves of Greater Archery
Ring: Ring of the Yeti
Ring: Holly Ring
Waist: Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
Pants: Kilt of Dungeonbane
Shirt: Shirt of Blessed Strength
Shins: Darkguard Greaves
Boots: Boots of the Four Winds
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Charm: Fiendish Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts, Segment 5

This is very easy to do, in my opinion. Am I the only one that thinks this is over-powered?

Is this build realistic to you? First I note it has no room for non-ioun UR treasure enhancers.

Why would a player to +18 to hit in melee, +22 to damage in melee, who slides two pucks in melee, instead consider downgrading to use just one puck on the Fixed Fate crossbow?

Why would such a player dedicate several premium melee slots (Hands, wrists, both rings) to ranged damage?


Finally. Charm of Shadow Shot doesn't add 6 to your ranged damage. It deals 6 damage if it and your other puck both hit.

Phrash wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For this token to be the one you want, two things have to come together:

A. Your ranged to-hit vs. Monster AC must require more than 16+

More than 16+ [to hit]? I'm reading the token as 15 or higher.

Here are the average monster AC's for 2015-2017:
Normal: 17.86 AC
Hardcore: 21.61 AC
Nightmare: 26.75 AC

On average, requiring more than 15 to hit appears to be the case for every difficulty. Case A always applies. Much more relevant at higher difficulties.

Case A is your to hit bonus, minus the monster's AC, requires you to slide a 16 or better.

So, with the averages you posted, the necessary to-hit bonus to not be in case A are:

Normal: 2.86
Hardcore: 5.61
Nighmare: 10.75

You are making my point for me.

If you have a ranged to-hit bonus (including Bardsong / Cleric bless/prary) of better than 3 on normal, 6 on hardcoree, and 11 on nightmare, then case A doesn't pertain, and the "hit on 15+" effect of this bow does exactly nothing.

The lenses of divine sight nerf is a heart breaker for sure. One of the hardest parts of trying higher difficulty is having the heals for it. With this nerf, I feel my entire group will have to go down a step just because I’m unable to keep up with heals.

I’ve made other purchases to get around the charm bottleneck.

It’s just another slap in the face. Invest to have to reinvest. Trading for another piece doesn’t help that I’ve already made a set around that item.

I know I don’t have to play, just putting my two cents in.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

galandros wrote: The ring of jealous heroism is strictly worse than the ring of heroism. If it's trying to mimic the neck from several years ago that have a level bump but you can't equip rings, I suggest to make this UR occupy a different slot.
Another suggestion, is if you really want to promote the Ring of Heroism again, use this Jealous Heroism as an ingredient for a new recipe to craft the Ring of Heroism. It gives newer players a token they can acquire to play 5th level, and then if they want to go down the rabbit hole they are well on their way to making the Ring of Heroism itself!

This is intended - Ring of Heroism is a Relc, and so should be better than a UR.

There has never been a UR level boost that didn't consume multiple slots or come as a set bonus from buying multiple URs.

The Medallion of Heroism consumed three slots, Neck, Ring and Ring.

This consumes three slots. Ring, Ring and Hands.

Functional equivalent. Except the new ring doesn't offer an upgrade path as the medallion did.

Should now be a good time to point out there is actually tokens in the game already that let you hit on a ranged attack with a modified 15? Meaning if you did have a +15 ranged you could hit on a 1 or better.


I thought the intent of the crossbow was to be a fixed unmodified 15 or better to hit.

Yes it allows someone to min/max a str build and still be somewhat effective in ranged combat.
I believed that was the intent.


Also for reference i'm also a believer in the old version of the tome except that it should allow the bard to use it.

valetutto wrote: Also for reference i'm also a believer in the old version of the tome except that it should allow the bard to use it.

I am in favor of adding the bard (and not just because I want an AOE healing build to be viable)

Matthew Hayward wrote:
Case A is your to hit bonus, minus the monster's AC, requires you to slide a 16 or better.

So, with the averages you posted, the necessary to-hit bonus to not be in case A are:

Normal: 2.86
Hardcore: 5.61
Nighmare: 10.75

You are making my point for me.

If you have a ranged to-hit bonus (including Bardsong / Cleric bless/prary) of better than 3 on normal, 6 on hardcoree, and 11 on nightmare, then case A doesn't pertain, and the "hit on 15+" effect of this bow does exactly nothing.

If you want to throw in bardsong, fine. I'll give you 1/3 for bless cause it's a 1/game thing. So lets say 2 and 1/3.

And, hey, I'll be extra nice and say the crossbow should have +2 normally because it's an Ultra Rare so 4 and 1/3

Normal is a wash, fine.
Hardcore: This weapon provides an extra 1.3 to hit. That over 2 dex or as if it was better than a +3 weapon. That's pretty good.
Nightmare: Why in the world does this, by itself, have an extra 6.42 to hit? That is like having a weapon with +8 to hit built into it!

Please tell me how to get 6+ to hit in ranged combat without considerable token investment that would not also take up token slots.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: And again, I want to reiterate, why is the fixed fate crossbow better than the +2 Keen Longbow????

Please explain how:

6.66 average damage, crit on 20

is "better than"

13.x average damage, crit on 19-20

?

+2 Keen Longbow is not +2 Keen Slayer Bow