TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

Arnold wrote: So-

If you're in favor of the skill-check-bypass Tome, you should be in favor of the crossbow.

If you're against the Tome, you should be against the crossbow as well.

Choosing one and saying it's okay while being against the other makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I read Fiddy's back and forth with Matthew.

I should have thrown the word "principle" in my statement.

It doesn't make sense to me to be against the principle behind one and not the other. Vise versa as well.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

Fiddy wrote: If spell resistance is going away (which is how I'm currently reading Jeff's post where he discusses modifying the Eldritch Set), I'd like us to swap out the reprint of the Charm of Spell Swapping for a revised Charm of the Cabal. if spell resistance going away, this charm becomes useless and makes the Cabal Set a weaker choice than it already is.

As for powers, I'm not sure. But I'll toss this out as a potential to start the conversation:

Charm of the Cabal:
Effect based on number of CotC in party.
+2 healing / damage bonus to:
1-2: Scrolls
3-4: & Wands
5: & Spells Cast as Scroll


And of course the intent is to allow turning in old Charms of the Cabal.

Good catch!!! +1!

I'd much rather see this in a new/different slot so it is more possible to get the Cabal set power.

Locking in Charm + Gloves + Wrists for a bunch of lackluster bonuses is an extremely high price to pay for that ability.

I also think the proposed token us underpowered - consider that an exalted slotless token gives you +2 damage and healing on scrolls and protects them as well. How many spells cast as a scroll do you fire off a dungeon? 3?

I'd redesign this as:
+3 focus to
1st tier synergy: scrolls and wands
2nd tier synergy: spells too
3rd tier synergy: May read scroll/use wand as FA 1/room

Keep in mind that bonuses from this would stack with that bonus from the slotless token. It isn't either/or.

I didn't include Spells in my initial list, since there is another Cabal item that has a bonus to spells. We also have a lot of other additional bonuses to Spells, fewer for non-Spells.

What slot would you suggest if not a Charm? For the level of power you suggested, I suspect Neck may be the only real option. And then you have to remember that the Legendary will soon take its spot. It'd be nice for the Cabal set to still be viable once the class-specific Legendaries come out.

Matthew Hayward wrote: What do you mean by "way out of bounds"?

This token gives you a shot to do ranged damage bonus + 6.66 on a slide of 15+.

By what criteria do you find this to be substantially more powerful than say, a free melee attack with melee damage bonuses (which easily climb into the 20s) on an initiative roll of 19+? Or +3 damage to all melee attacks in the melee off hand? Or +6 damage on a secondary ranged hit with Charm of Shadow Shot?

Why are none of these comparisons UR ranged weapons or the same effect category (ranged to-hit)?
All of these tokens provide different additional bonuses while occupying other slots, and I do not see these as equivalent arguments.

But here are my thoughts:

• a free melee attack with melee damage bonuses (which easily climb into the 20s) on an initiative roll of 19+
  • This token does not exist yet, likely burns more time than it is worth, triggers on average 1 out of 10 combats and I do not like it. I don't know how to compare this charm to an Ultra Rare ranged weapon.
• +3 damage to all melee attacks in the melee off hand
  • There is already precedence for it on rare tokens ( Brawler’s Mug (Rare) ), and it takes up the offhand slot which blocks the usage of shields (where applicable). I like this token because I think Druids, Rogue, Bards, and technically Wizards got screwed out of the +2 strength set bonus of the redoubt set that allows 2-handed weapon classes to equip the redoubt set with the shield in the ranged offhand slot for +2 strength and +5 hp (offhand shield cheese). I also compare this to Orb of Might and, by removing the the 1/3 of a level boost (might set) and ability to use as a weapon for monks and rangers, the melee damage boost can reasonably be increased.
• +6 damage on a secondary ranged hit with Charm of Shadow Shot
  • Why are we comparing a charm that can also be used with this crossbow on rangers? You can use both.

Matthew Hayward wrote: For this token to be the one you want, two things have to come together:

A. Your ranged to-hit vs. Monster AC must require more than 16+

More than 16+ [to hit]? I'm reading the token as 15 or higher.

Here are the average monster AC's for 2015-2017:
Normal: 17.86 AC
Hardcore: 21.61 AC
Nightmare: 26.75 AC

On average, requiring more than 15 to hit appears to be the case for every difficulty. Case A always applies. Much more relevant at higher difficulties.

Matthew Hayward wrote: B. Either your melee to-hit is even worse,

Many spellcaster druids, wizards, and bards would fit this criteria.

Matthew Hayward wrote: or the monster is immune to melee,

It's happened once or twice (Shadow Fae -- Moongate Maze 2017). I would also argue any flying enemy (could alternatively use leaping attack potions) and enemies on higher platforms would also likely fit this criteria, so add at least 2 more from year 2018.

Matthew Hayward wrote: or your melee damage bonus is less than your ranged damage bonus.

I would argue that BOTH of these being true at the same time is very unlikely - either you've built around melee in which case you want to be doing melee, or you've built around ranged, in which case your ranged to-hit is going to be better than 15+ anyway.

And I would argue that BOTH of these being true at the same time is very likely and has happened on multiple occasions in the dungeons in the past few years.

Matthew Hayward wrote: This token seems mostly useful when you've built around melee and the monster is immune to melee.

Yes, and my argument is that it is WAY too useful when this occurs.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.


Bracers of Archery is what would be used; Bracers of Supreme Archery only additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.

Of course bracers of Supreme Archery benefit this token! This token doesn't say "Only ever hit on a 15+" - it says "always hit on a 15+". If your to-hit number is less than 15 (as it could be with things like Bracers of Supreme Archery) you get all the benefit.

Are you interpreting that this crossbow would set the to-hit at 15 and the Sniper Spectacles and Bracers of Supreme Archery would further improve it to automatically hit on 10 and above on any difficulty?! With just 3 Ultra Rares?!

Thankfully, I am fairly confident that this is not the case as it would be impossible to write on the party card and I don't see a player telling a DM "I have X and X so I actually hit on 10's."

I interpret additional bonus to-hit to affect the base to-hit and the only scenario where gains would be seen would be where the player +to hit climbs higher than the unique property of the crossbow. And yeah, I expect the player would be using a relic or legendary bow or throwing hammer at that point, but not a different Ultra Rare.

Some quick math:

At hardcore (~22 AC)
With the +5 to hit from having 20 dex, A Thor's would hit on a 12 and above. An Io's would hit on a 13 and above. A +2 Keen Longbow would hit on a 15 and above if you had 20 dex, and you would not need that 20 dex or ranged to-hit for this crossbow to hit on 15 and above.

At nightmare (27 AC)
Similar setups, Thor's would hit on a 17 and above. An Io's would hit on a 18 and above. A +2 Keen Longbow would only hit on a 20 (and I think all attacks hit on 20), while this crossbow would be just dandy on hitting on a 15 and above.

For the +2 Keen Longbow to get to the same level, you would need to increase dex to 30, or find additional range to-hit tokens like Sniper Spectacles and Bracers of Supreme Archery.

My main point, is that on nightmare difficulty, the crossbow would have the power equivalent to 3 Ultra Rare tokens.

I am happy we agree in the rest of your post. I went on a bit of a rant there, and apologize if I got carried away. As you can tell, I feel strongly about tokens.

Grekel! wrote: ...

Sorry I lost my cool.
Maybe I read motives and subtext that weren’t there.
I’ve been very frustrated with how things are going this year. Then when I saw what I interpreted as disregard for folks with sincere challenges from multiple people, it pushed some buttons.

I know everyone who takes the time to post here wants the best for the game and the players as a whole. And they absolutely should feel comfortable in expressing their opinions. That includes you, of course.

We just don’t always agree on what is best or how to get there. Normally I’m okay with that.

Arnold wrote: So-

If you're in favor of the skill-check-bypass Tome, you should be in favor of the crossbow.

If you're against the Tome, you should be against the crossbow as well.

Choosing one and saying it's okay while being against the other makes no sense to me whatsoever.

100% disagree.

Being in favor the tome means in effect being ok with clerics and druids potentially getting about 18 bonus healing they might have already been getting over the course of a dungeon. And wizards potentially pulling down 31 more damage that they again may already be getting over the course of the dungeon. So in either case about 1 big spell which they again might have already been benefiting from.

That is entirely different then all classes (other then cleric) potentially being able to ignore or even penalize their ranged combat stats and still being able to hit on basically 10+ with bard song.

Arnold wrote: I should have thrown the word "principle" in my statement.

It doesn't make sense to me to be against the principle behind one and not the other. Vise versa as well.

Again sure it does, its an issue of scale. I'm ok with charity, I'm not ok with giving away everything I own. Any virtue taken to extreme can become a vice.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Grekel! wrote: ...

Sorry I lost my cool.
Maybe I read motives and subtext that weren’t there.
I’ve been very frustrated with how things are going this year. Then when I saw what I interpreted as disregard for folks with sincere challenges from multiple people, it pushed some buttons.

I know everyone who takes the time to post here wants the best for the game and the players as a whole. And they absolutely should feel comfortable in expressing their opinions. That includes you, of course.

We just don’t always agree on what is best or how to get there. Normally I’m okay with that.

Agree 100% - no hard feelings - I appreciate the response!

Picc wrote:

Arnold wrote: So-

If you're in favor of the skill-check-bypass Tome, you should be in favor of the crossbow.

If you're against the Tome, you should be against the crossbow as well.

Choosing one and saying it's okay while being against the other makes no sense to me whatsoever.

100% disagree.

Being in favor the tome means in effect being ok with clerics and druids potentially getting about 18 bonus healing they might have already been getting over the course of a dungeon. And wizards potentially pulling down 31 more damage that they again may already be getting over the course of the dungeon. So in either case about 1 big spell which they again might have already been benefiting from.

That is entirely different then all classes (other then cleric) potentially being able to ignore or even penalize their ranged combat stats and still being able to hit on basically 10+ with bard song.

Arnold wrote: I should have thrown the word "principle" in my statement.

It doesn't make sense to me to be against the principle behind one and not the other. Vise versa as well.

Again sure it does, its an issue of scale. I'm ok with charity, I'm not ok with giving away everything I own. Any virtue taken to extreme can become a vice.

Agree to disagree. In my view - both trivialize a fundamental aspect of the game.

Thank you for taking the time to lay out the opposing stance in a way I could appreciate, though.

Arnold wrote: So-

If you're in favor of the skill-check-bypass Tome, you should be in favor of the crossbow.

If you're against the Tome, you should be against the crossbow as well.

Choosing one and saying it's okay while being against the other makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I'm in favor of the auto-pass skillcheck tome, and against the crossbow. They don't seem like the same issue to me. The skillchecks can really stress some people out, and only add a few points of damage / healing to the spell. Hitting with a crossbow is the entire damage all or nothing. I think it's got the potential to really limit the design of future rooms.

I thought the crossbow was to be Fixed Fate....which I thought of as no damage modifiers or bonuses to hit. Then you would have to slide a 15 or better and you only got the damage from the crossbow with no modifiers.

I thought that's why Jeff added the purple ring around the damage wheel to help out with the dm being able to notice the token.

Adam Guay wrote: I thought that's why Jeff added the purple ring around the damage wheel to help out with the dm being able to notice the token.

For hitting, yes. For damage, no. Or at least that was my understanding.

Adam Guay wrote: I thought the crossbow was to be Fixed Fate....which I thought of as no damage modifiers or bonuses to hit. Then you would have to slide a 15 or better and you only got the damage from the crossbow with no modifiers.

That would make sense to me.

"Fixed fate" = no modifiers. Either of them.