Fiddy wrote:
Matthew Hayward wrote:
Phrash wrote:
Matthew Hayward wrote: You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?
7 without?
+2 with Draco-Lich?
Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?
Just because it's currently hard to build for ranged damage does not mean that it is okay to print a token that is way out of bounds compared to other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.
What do you mean by "way out of bounds"?
This token gives you a shot to do ranged damage bonus + 6.66 on a slide of 15+.
By what criteria do you find this to be substantially more powerful than say, a free melee attack with melee damage bonuses (which easily climb into the 20s) on an initiative roll of 19+? Or +3 damage to all melee attacks in the melee off hand? Or +6 damage on a secondary ranged hit with Charm of Shadow Shot?
For this token to be the one you want, two things have to come together:
A. Your ranged to-hit vs. Monster AC must require more than 16+
B. Either your melee to-hit is even worse, or the monster is immune to melee, or your melee damage bonus is less than your ranged damage bonus.
I would argue that BOTH of these being true at the same time is very unlikely - either you've built around melee in which case you want to be doing melee, or you've built around ranged, in which case your ranged to-hit is going to be better than 15+ anyway.
This token seems mostly useful when you've built around melee and the monster is immune to melee.
When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.
Bracers of Archery
is what would be used;
Bracers of Supreme Archery
only additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.
Of course bracers of Supreme Archery benefit this token! This token doesn't say "Only ever hit on a 15+" - it says "always hit on a 15+". If your to-hit number is less than 15 (as it could be with things like Bracers of Supreme Archery) you get all the benefit.
Range damage lenses do not currently exist.
Good point - I was thinking of the ranged to-hit lenses.
Matthew Hayward wrote: One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.
At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.
Adding this rule would needlessly burden the DM and frustrate players. I am tired of retroactively fixing tokens that are too powerful down the line. It is getting pretty sour already this year. Can we just balance them now?
I do not like this token and would prefer to use the design space for something else. If it has to exist, I would propose to either:
- Have a damage wheel of (4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4) to lower the power and add in extra "fixed fate" flavor.
- Have it not be affected by any ranged damage boosting tokens.
Please keep this in line with other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.
Having looked at damage wheels on other URs, I agree the wheel on this should take a nerf - right now it's up with other +2 weapons and I agree that doesn't seem quite right.
Matt, you ran the comparison at the high end of builds, but what about at the low end? What happens when this UR is pulled as part of a sealed run, compared to if say the Mighty Longbow was pulled?
I think that end of the spectrum is where this UR becomes overpowered?
Interesting question! In that scenario let's assume you're playing at Normal.
At Normal monster ACs are ~18.
Let's say you are 4th level have a 4th level Bard, and are under the Bless effect for +2 to hit. Then with no other (relevant, STR or DEX boosting) tokens:
So you are at 16+ to hit with a +0 weapon before class DEX.
Barbarian:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 8.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66
Bard:
+1 Mighty Shortbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 3.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66
Cleric:
Can't use fixed fate
Druid:
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 13+, average damage 3.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.66
Dwarf Fighter:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66
Elf Wizard/Wizard
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 14+, average damage 2.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66
Fighter:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 7.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66
Monk:
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 13+, average damage 4.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.66
Paladin:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 5.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66
Ranger:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on: 12+, average damage 8.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 13+, average damage 8.66
Rogue:
+1 Mighty Shortbow: Hits on 12+, average damage 5.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 13+, average damage 6.66
So it looks to me like at this starting 10 pack and 1 UR level:
Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger all want the mighty weapon
Everyone else has better to-hit with the mighty weapon, but worse damage.
As I said, I think the wheel on this should drop by 1/2.