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TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #181

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Phrash wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?

7 without?

+2 with Draco-Lich?

Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?

Just because it's currently hard to build for ranged damage does not mean that it is okay to print a token that is way out of bounds compared to other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


What do you mean by "way out of bounds"?

This token gives you a shot to do ranged damage bonus + 6.66 on a slide of 15+.

By what criteria do you find this to be substantially more powerful than say, a free melee attack with melee damage bonuses (which easily climb into the 20s) on an initiative roll of 19+? Or +3 damage to all melee attacks in the melee off hand? Or +6 damage on a secondary ranged hit with Charm of Shadow Shot?

For this token to be the one you want, two things have to come together:

A. Your ranged to-hit vs. Monster AC must require more than 16+
B. Either your melee to-hit is even worse, or the monster is immune to melee, or your melee damage bonus is less than your ranged damage bonus.

I would argue that BOTH of these being true at the same time is very unlikely - either you've built around melee in which case you want to be doing melee, or you've built around ranged, in which case your ranged to-hit is going to be better than 15+ anyway.

This token seems mostly useful when you've built around melee and the monster is immune to melee.

When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.


Bracers of Archery is what would be used; Bracers of Supreme Archery only additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.


Of course bracers of Supreme Archery benefit this token! This token doesn't say "Only ever hit on a 15+" - it says "always hit on a 15+". If your to-hit number is less than 15 (as it could be with things like Bracers of Supreme Archery) you get all the benefit.


Range damage lenses do not currently exist.


Good point - I was thinking of the ranged to-hit lenses.

Matthew Hayward wrote: One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.

Adding this rule would needlessly burden the DM and frustrate players. I am tired of retroactively fixing tokens that are too powerful down the line. It is getting pretty sour already this year. Can we just balance them now?

I do not like this token and would prefer to use the design space for something else. If it has to exist, I would propose to either:

  • Have a damage wheel of (4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4) to lower the power and add in extra "fixed fate" flavor.
  • Have it not be affected by any ranged damage boosting tokens.

Please keep this in line with other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


Having looked at damage wheels on other URs, I agree the wheel on this should take a nerf - right now it's up with other +2 weapons and I agree that doesn't seem quite right.


Matt, you ran the comparison at the high end of builds, but what about at the low end? What happens when this UR is pulled as part of a sealed run, compared to if say the Mighty Longbow was pulled?

I think that end of the spectrum is where this UR becomes overpowered?
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #182

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: For everybody who wanted Gregor's Tome to auto-pass skill tests so you could play memorization classes: you can do that now. It really isn't a big deal to fail some skill tests in my opinion. I have a horrible memory but I still play them from time to time.


I think a Bard would love to auto pass the lore test.

The others I agree are not a big deal.


Yes we would.
Personally i never bother with the lore checks but if I had a token that let me autopass i would do it more often. Not every time because it still takes a valuable action.
Sweet a combat room, we won't take damage!
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #183

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?


I can get more damage out of Thor's Hammer
Sweet a combat room, we won't take damage!
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #184

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Phrash wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?

7 without?

+2 with Draco-Lich?

Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?

Just because it's currently hard to build for ranged damage does not mean that it is okay to print a token that is way out of bounds compared to other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


What do you mean by "way out of bounds"?

This token gives you a shot to do ranged damage bonus + 6.66 on a slide of 15+.

By what criteria do you find this to be substantially more powerful than say, a free melee attack with melee damage bonuses (which easily climb into the 20s) on an initiative roll of 19+? Or +3 damage to all melee attacks in the melee off hand? Or +6 damage on a secondary ranged hit with Charm of Shadow Shot?

For this token to be the one you want, two things have to come together:

A. Your ranged to-hit vs. Monster AC must require more than 16+
B. Either your melee to-hit is even worse, or the monster is immune to melee, or your melee damage bonus is less than your ranged damage bonus.

I would argue that BOTH of these being true at the same time is very unlikely - either you've built around melee in which case you want to be doing melee, or you've built around ranged, in which case your ranged to-hit is going to be better than 15+ anyway.

This token seems mostly useful when you've built around melee and the monster is immune to melee.

When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.


Bracers of Archery is what would be used; Bracers of Supreme Archery only additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.


Of course bracers of Supreme Archery benefit this token! This token doesn't say "Only ever hit on a 15+" - it says "always hit on a 15+". If your to-hit number is less than 15 (as it could be with things like Bracers of Supreme Archery) you get all the benefit.


Range damage lenses do not currently exist.


Good point - I was thinking of the ranged to-hit lenses.

Matthew Hayward wrote: One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.

Adding this rule would needlessly burden the DM and frustrate players. I am tired of retroactively fixing tokens that are too powerful down the line. It is getting pretty sour already this year. Can we just balance them now?

I do not like this token and would prefer to use the design space for something else. If it has to exist, I would propose to either:

  • Have a damage wheel of (4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4) to lower the power and add in extra "fixed fate" flavor.
  • Have it not be affected by any ranged damage boosting tokens.

Please keep this in line with other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


Having looked at damage wheels on other URs, I agree the wheel on this should take a nerf - right now it's up with other +2 weapons and I agree that doesn't seem quite right.


Matt, you ran the comparison at the high end of builds, but what about at the low end? What happens when this UR is pulled as part of a sealed run, compared to if say the Mighty Longbow was pulled?

I think that end of the spectrum is where this UR becomes overpowered?


Interesting question! In that scenario let's assume you're playing at Normal.

At Normal monster ACs are ~18.

Let's say you are 4th level have a 4th level Bard, and are under the Bless effect for +2 to hit. Then with no other (relevant, STR or DEX boosting) tokens:

So you are at 16+ to hit with a +0 weapon before class DEX.

Barbarian:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 8.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Bard:
+1 Mighty Shortbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 3.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Cleric:
Can't use fixed fate

Druid:
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 13+, average damage 3.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.66

Dwarf Fighter:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Elf Wizard/Wizard
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 14+, average damage 2.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Fighter:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 7.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Monk:
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 13+, average damage 4.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.66

Paladin:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 5.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Ranger:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on: 12+, average damage 8.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 13+, average damage 8.66

Rogue:
+1 Mighty Shortbow: Hits on 12+, average damage 5.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 13+, average damage 6.66



So it looks to me like at this starting 10 pack and 1 UR level:

Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger all want the mighty weapon

Everyone else has better to-hit with the mighty weapon, but worse damage.

As I said, I think the wheel on this should drop by 1/2.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #185

Phrash wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?

7 without?

+2 with Draco-Lich?

Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?

Just because it's currently hard to build for ranged damage does not mean that it is okay to print a token that is way out of bounds compared to other Ultra Rare ranged weapons. When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.

Bracers of Archery is what would be used; Bracers of Supreme Archery additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.

Range damage lenses do not currently exist.

Matthew Hayward wrote: One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.

Adding this rule would needlessly burden the DM and frustrate players. I am tired of retroactively fixing tokens that are too powerful down the line. It is getting pretty sour already this year. Can we just balance them now?

I do not like this token and would prefer to use the design space for something else. If it has to exist, I would propose either:

  • Have a damage wheel of (4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4) to lower the power and add in extra "fixed fate" flavor.
  • Have it not be affected by any ranged damage boosting tokens.

Please keep this in line with other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


I'd prefer a straight reprint of the +1 Mighty Short Bow. I agree this token could create a lot of problems.
The topic has been locked.

2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #186

The ring of jealous heroism is strictly worse than the ring of heroism. If it's trying to mimic the neck from several years ago that have a level bump but you can't equip rings, I suggest to make this UR occupy a different slot.
Another suggestion, is if you really want to promote the Ring of Heroism again, use this Jealous Heroism as an ingredient for a new recipe to craft the Ring of Heroism. It gives newer players a token they can acquire to play 5th level, and then if they want to go down the rabbit hole they are well on their way to making the Ring of Heroism itself!
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #187

I want to throw out a question. If this token was reversed, where it was a melee weapon that guaranteed hit from 15-20, would there be any objections? I think everybody would be in uproar that it's way over-powered.

Yes, this past year the combats were different, requiring melee characters to take a turn climbing. Heck, this makes the room interesting! This makes the choices of your builds so much more crucial! If you go in only prepared to hit in melee, then of course you'll be disappointed! But don't complain that the dungeon was too hard, complain that you didn't prepare properly! I think it's EXTREMELY generous that melee fighters were allowed to take a turn to climb. It could have been easily made that only ranged attacks were permitted.

Some stat analysis for those who want it. You can get +22 in ranged damage without benefiting dex:

(Note, none of these are Legendary!)
Ranger: +4
Bot4W: +5
Draco charm: +2
Gloves of Supreme Archery: +4
Bracers of Archery: +2
Holly Ring: +1
Ring of the Yeti: +3
Eldritch bonus (kilt): +1
(add in Charm of Shadow Shot for 6 more if you want)



Now, you still have a kilt, belt, neck, charms, Ioun Stones, ears, eyes, etc. for adding to strength:

A quick build can get to +18 to hit, +22 damage in melee without using Legendary tokens.

starting ranger

STR: 36
DEX: 19
CON: 15
INT: 11
WIS: 13
CHA: 13

Melee:
Hit: 18 Damage: 22 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 5 Damage: 22 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Health: 38

Melee Mainhand: +2 Deadly Drow Blood Mace
Melee Offhand: +2 Viper Strike Fang
Ranged Mainhand: +1 Bliss Long Bow
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Empty
Right Ear: Empty
Neck: Medallion of Valhalla
Torso: Blessed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Archery
Hands: Gloves of Greater Archery
Ring: Ring of the Yeti
Ring: Holly Ring
Waist: Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
Pants: Kilt of Dungeonbane
Shirt: Shirt of Blessed Strength
Shins: Darkguard Greaves
Boots: Boots of the Four Winds
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Charm: Fiendish Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts, Segment 5

This is very easy to do, in my opinion. Am I the only one that thinks this is over-powered?
Last edit: by Matt Goodman.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #188

And again, I want to reiterate, why is the fixed fate crossbow better than the +2 Keen Longbow????
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #189

Would it be better if it were

+2 fixed fate crossbow, always hits on natural 17-20, with a fixed damage wheel of 5?
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #190

So-

If you're in favor of the skill-check-bypass Tome, you should be in favor of the crossbow.

If you're against the Tome, you should be against the crossbow as well.

Choosing one and saying it's okay while being against the other makes no sense to me whatsoever.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #191

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Phrash wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?

7 without?

+2 with Draco-Lich?

Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?

Just because it's currently hard to build for ranged damage does not mean that it is okay to print a token that is way out of bounds compared to other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


What do you mean by "way out of bounds"?

This token gives you a shot to do ranged damage bonus + 6.66 on a slide of 15+.

By what criteria do you find this to be substantially more powerful than say, a free melee attack with melee damage bonuses (which easily climb into the 20s) on an initiative roll of 19+? Or +3 damage to all melee attacks in the melee off hand? Or +6 damage on a secondary ranged hit with Charm of Shadow Shot?

For this token to be the one you want, two things have to come together:

A. Your ranged to-hit vs. Monster AC must require more than 16+
B. Either your melee to-hit is even worse, or the monster is immune to melee, or your melee damage bonus is less than your ranged damage bonus.

I would argue that BOTH of these being true at the same time is very unlikely - either you've built around melee in which case you want to be doing melee, or you've built around ranged, in which case your ranged to-hit is going to be better than 15+ anyway.

This token seems mostly useful when you've built around melee and the monster is immune to melee.

When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.


Bracers of Archery is what would be used; Bracers of Supreme Archery only additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.


Of course bracers of Supreme Archery benefit this token! This token doesn't say "Only ever hit on a 15+" - it says "always hit on a 15+". If your to-hit number is less than 15 (as it could be with things like Bracers of Supreme Archery) you get all the benefit.


Range damage lenses do not currently exist.


Good point - I was thinking of the ranged to-hit lenses.

Matthew Hayward wrote: One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.

Adding this rule would needlessly burden the DM and frustrate players. I am tired of retroactively fixing tokens that are too powerful down the line. It is getting pretty sour already this year. Can we just balance them now?

I do not like this token and would prefer to use the design space for something else. If it has to exist, I would propose to either:

  • Have a damage wheel of (4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4) to lower the power and add in extra "fixed fate" flavor.
  • Have it not be affected by any ranged damage boosting tokens.

Please keep this in line with other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


Having looked at damage wheels on other URs, I agree the wheel on this should take a nerf - right now it's up with other +2 weapons and I agree that doesn't seem quite right.


Matt, you ran the comparison at the high end of builds, but what about at the low end? What happens when this UR is pulled as part of a sealed run, compared to if say the Mighty Longbow was pulled?

I think that end of the spectrum is where this UR becomes overpowered?


Interesting question! In that scenario let's assume you're playing at Normal.

At Normal monster ACs are ~18.

Let's say you are 4th level have a 4th level Bard, and are under the Bless effect for +2 to hit. Then with no other (relevant, STR or DEX boosting) tokens:

So you are at 16+ to hit with a +0 weapon before class DEX.

Barbarian:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 8.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Bard:
+1 Mighty Shortbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 3.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Cleric:
Can't use fixed fate

Druid:
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 13+, average damage 3.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.66

Dwarf Fighter:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Elf Wizard/Wizard
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 14+, average damage 2.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Fighter:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 7.5
Fixed Fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Monk:
+1 Mighty Sling: Hits on 13+, average damage 4.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 14+, average damage 6.66

Paladin:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on 14+, average damage 5.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 15+, average damage 6.66

Ranger:
+1 Mighty Longbow: Hits on: 12+, average damage 8.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 13+, average damage 8.66

Rogue:
+1 Mighty Shortbow: Hits on 12+, average damage 5.5
Fixed fate: Hits on 13+, average damage 6.66



So it looks to me like at this starting 10 pack and 1 UR level:

Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger all want the mighty weapon

Everyone else has better to-hit with the mighty weapon, but worse damage.

As I said, I think the wheel on this should drop by 1/2.


Dropping the wheel by 1/2 would satisfy me.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 3 months ago #192

Arnold wrote: So-

If you're in favor of the skill-check-bypass Tome, you should be in favor of the crossbow.

If you're against the Tome, you should be against the crossbow as well.

Choosing one and saying it's okay while being against the other makes no sense to me whatsoever.


Personally the skill checks don’t bother me. It wasn’t difficult to memorize them in the first coaching room.

I will say sliding has a lot more variance than a static skill test. I just found it weird that I’d even consider taking the crossbow over Thor’s hammer when playing wizard at NM+. I’m not guaranteed to hit on Thor’s rolling a 19-20 even with my build if the monster’s AC is too high, but that crossbow can.
Last edit: by Josh Wilhelmi.
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