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TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #169

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?

Legendary crits 19-20, a few more points of damage, depending on build will hit more than just 15, damage bonus on Thor is off strength not dex. That is off the top of my head.

Everyone does have a good point it probably is too strong for an UR.

Ed
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Last edit: by MasterED.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #170

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

Fiddy wrote: If spell resistance is going away (which is how I'm currently reading Jeff's post where he discusses modifying the Eldritch Set), I'd like us to swap out the reprint of the Charm of Spell Swapping for a revised Charm of the Cabal. if spell resistance going away, this charm becomes useless and makes the Cabal Set a weaker choice than it already is.

As for powers, I'm not sure. But I'll toss this out as a potential to start the conversation:

Charm of the Cabal:
Effect based on number of CotC in party.
+2 healing / damage bonus to:
1-2: Scrolls
3-4: & Wands
5: & Spells Cast as Scroll


And of course the intent is to allow turning in old Charms of the Cabal.


Good catch!!! +1!


I'd much rather see this in a new/different slot so it is more possible to get the Cabal set power.

Locking in Charm + Gloves + Wrists for a bunch of lackluster bonuses is an extremely high price to pay for that ability.

I also think the proposed token us underpowered - consider that an exalted slotless token gives you +2 damage and healing on scrolls and protects them as well. How many spells cast as a scroll do you fire off a dungeon? 3?

I'd redesign this as:
+3 focus to
1st tier synergy: scrolls and wands
2nd tier synergy: spells too
3rd tier synergy: May read scroll/use wand as FA 1/room


I suggest waiting a year. Jeff mentioned making INT & WIS (& maybe CHA) matter more when character cards get updated. Lets see what happens with that and maybe key off it for a cabal update.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #171

Bob Chasan wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Dougout wrote: A Few People Including myself have offered up the idea of evening out the stat +/-points on the transmute to +2 STR / +2 DEX / +2CON or some variation. I Also agree that the Barrelbane should net +2 stat pts. with -2 CON/DEX instead of the current -3.A lot of people are mad about losing +points.

Can I suggest an added level of Flexibility and wackiness if we're keeping the idea of choosing stats to boost... Instead of +5 to one stat of your choice... Allow the kilt to be +6 Point Pool to be used as you see fit among STR/DEX/CON So... if you wanted +6 STR, you can have it, if you want +2 to all 3 you can have that... if you want +3Con, +2Dex, +1Str, you can do that... etc...


+1 on the split but keep it an even +2 across the board on the Kilt. Spread it even if it's a +5 split. +2 str, +2 Con and +1 Dex.


I don’t like that split at all


Nor would any wizard.....
First ever death in True Horde
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #172

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?


I think so, let me take you through an example

TL;DR: You deal 10-15 damage more with the hammer, crit on 19 as well, and "auto hit" on lower slides than 15 anyway.

At Nightmare, a monster's AC is going to be around 25 or so.

To wield the hammer you need a DEX of 20 anyway. Adds to DEX for a Melee Build for this build come from:

Stu-Pendous Pendant +3 or Amulet of the Champion +2
Ioun Stone Quicksilver Cube, Sphere +3
RoSP or RoSP Segment 6 +1
Bracers of Fast Fitness +2
Possibly, in a stretch, Charm of the Quicksip +2 DEX/-1 STR

From among these tokens all classes can get to 20 DEX.

So, to recap:

1. Typical monster AC is 25
2. You get +5 to hit from your DEX
3. You get +5 to hit from your hammer
4. You now hit on 15+ - just like with the Fixed Fate Crossbow, but.
5. Your hammer to-hit is improved by Bardsong (+2) and Cleric Bless/Prayer (+1/+2)
6. So actually you are hitting on ~12+ or so. If you used the Fixed Fate you'd be at 15+.

You are hitting with lower numbers with the hammer.

Now let's turn to the rest of the build.

It's time to go all in on STR boosters so they can deal the most damage in melee, hit the best in melee, and also boost thrown weapon damage.

So, taking a relic level build, they build up STR with:
+3 from Ioun Stone Onyx Cube and Sphere
+2 from Shirt of Blessed Strength
+3 from Stu-Pendous Pendant
+4 from Mithral Gauntlets
+5 from Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
+2 from Greater Onyx Charm
+2 from Fiendish Charm
Somehow get to 5th level

You are at +21 STR here, depending on your class your final STR will be in the 32 to 40 range (+2 more if you have the Redoubt Set).

Your thrown weapon damage modifier from STR alone is between 11 and 15.

The average damage on Thor's +5 is 8.5, the average damage on the Fixed Fate bow is 6.66.

Your total ranged damage mod is:

Hammer:
Any ranged non-STR bonuses (e.g. Ring of the Yeti) + 8.5 + STR bonus 11-15

Fixed Fate:
Any ranged non-STR bonuses (e.g. Ring of the Yeti) + 6.66 + 0 (no STR bonus)

In the end you deal 10-15 or so more with the hammer, have a better crit range, and the "auto hit" portion of the crossbow is completely irrelevant - unless the dungeon gives you monsters with substantially higher AC than you would have expected.





The other TL;DR of this I see is:

a. In 2018 we saw multiple rooms where the first round in melee was lost climbing up an obstacle.
b. Based on TBTP comments in the past, I expect this to continue.
c. This tokens gives people all in on STR a way to contribute in ranged fights, albeit modestly (~15 damage on a hit with Draco-Lich and Boots of the Four Winds).

This only way I see this token becoming problematic is if we somehow get to a place where non-thrown ranged damage bonuses are exceeding melee/thrown damage bonuses on charters with low DEX. I can't see how that would happen.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #173

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Picc wrote:

Grekel! wrote: IMHO, all of these things add to the challenge, and to the fun...


I'm glad that's your perspective, it's a good one and I share it but not everyone can. Some folks get legit freaked out by things that dont make logical sense and items that let them feel like they have a safe out help a lot. Sure they aren't for everyone, and yes its bypassing part of the game, but so is letting people with mobility issues walk around an alternative route rather then push through an inflatable membrane.


I'm also fine if the token has a drawback or cost, I just cant think of one that fits a focus item that will probably be used for healing half the time.


There it is again. People imposing “mandatory fun,” for our own good.

A lot of people know my wife has Parkinson’s. She has balance and dexterity issues. Thankfully, DMs don’t give us a bad time when I help her keep her balance while crossing frozen streams or lava pools and whatnot. The only way she would consider playing Rogue is with the Crowbar. She can’t even play Monk or Ranger because trying to use two pucks is too taxing.

The puzzles and skill tests may be part of the “fun” for most, but not everyone.

But even if people don’t have a physical or mental condition that makes certain aspects of the game uncomfortable or impossible, SO WHAT? And I mean that in the sense, how arrogant to veto a token just because it doesn’t seem fun TO YOU?

Did anyone else read what Jeff wrote about this token, and why he designed it the way he did? It has meaning to him. It’s the only way my wife would consider playing a memory class. If you don’t like it, I sincerely suggest you just don’t buy the monkey fighting thing


I didn't know that.

Your points are taken. Even if you buy the token for the focus, and don't like the auto pass power, just don't use it.

It's like arguing that stuff shouldn't be on TV. If you don't like it, change the channel or turn it off.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #174

Mike Steele wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

Phrash wrote: Happy to see the Shaman's Belt polymorph activation as a free action.

19-20 on Charm of the Quickstrike is too low of a chance. With it triggering 10% of the time, chances of running 6 combats (two dungeons) and having it not trigger once would be above 53% (.9^6).

+2 Death Flail -- it has the potential to ruin combat and I was hoping to see another monk Flurry of Blows Ultra Rare weapon before another Ultra Rare 2-hander.

Fixed Fate Lt. Crossbow -- This token is MUCH too powerful in my opinion. I do not like enabling players to ignore ranged to-hit stats with "always hits on 15-20" with no downside. On nightmare difficulty, where the enemy AC values have recently ranged from 25 to 35, this token would provide between +10 to +20 to hit. That's way too high! The damage wheel (average 6.7) is higher than the +2 Keen Longbow (average 6.5) while usable by 5 more classes!

Hat of the Hellway -- I know we are heading into a very hot place, but I was hoping to get a different effect than -2 fire damage. I'd like to pitch the idea of self healing on hit again.


It's late, and I should be sleeping, but I wanted to echo this as strongly as I can.

I don't care about the mechanic of the charm of quick strike. I think it will eat up valuable combat time. However, in its current form, the likelihood of this happening is very minimal. Interesting new idea though.

+2 Death Flail. Bad, bad, bad. Auto killing any monster? Great for the barbarian, but at the expense of fun for the rest of the party? And another two-handed weapon. Do we really need it?

Fixed fate crossbow. HORRIBLE. Way overpowered! If you stat a character for melee, you should ALWAYS have an idea for the times you need range. The auto hit is completely ridiculous. A character can actually have a negative dexterity, yet still use this to great effect. "but strength isn't added to damage", true, but boots of the four winds and dracolich claw charm do. So that's +7 damage right there. The fact that it does better than the +2 Keen Longbow is crazy. I would drop this completely. Barring that, have a minimum dexterity requirement, less damage wheel, and auto hits on 17-20.

Hat of the Hellway. As it stands, there's so much fire resistance on tokens, it's a little overwhelming and lackluster. Healing with a successful hit is an interesting mechanic that's been done successfully before (ring of dark health)


I agree on the Fixed Fate crossbow. It seems to really limit Dungeon design space. Does it automatically hit on rooms where ranged normally isn't allowed? Does it automatically hit in situations like phasing or invisible or displaced monsters? I also think it should be limited to the classes that can normally use a crossbow.


Are you proposing it be changed to a regular crossbow, not a Lt. Crossbow?

Lt. Crossbows often are usable by all but cleric in TD?
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #175

MasterED wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?

Legendary crits 19-20, a few more points of damage, depending on build will hit more than just 15, damage bonus on Thor is off strength not dex. That is off the top of my head.

Everyone does have a good point it probably is too strong for an UR.

Ed


One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #176

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?

Legendary crits 19-20, a few more points of damage, depending on build will hit more than just 15, damage bonus on Thor is off strength not dex. That is off the top of my head.

Everyone does have a good point it probably is too strong for an UR.

Ed


One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.


Umm I don't know what all you are talking about the best weapons, why all the best people just use turkey legs for weapons :-).
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #177

Picc wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?


Honestly I'm starting to think this item is somewhat OP as you can just build strength and even tank your dex with +- items and still be ok in ranged. Maybe we should just reprint the mighty shortbow this year to pair off with last years mighty long bow.


You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?

7 without?

+2 with Draco-Lich?

Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #178

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?


Doesn't the hammer add in the Strength bonus and the UR bow doesn't? That's a pretty big selling point for the hammer for a lot of classes.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #179

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?

7 without?

+2 with Draco-Lich?

Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?

Just because it's currently hard to build for ranged damage does not mean that it is okay to print a token that is way out of bounds compared to other Ultra Rare ranged weapons. When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.

Bracers of Archery is what would be used; Bracers of Supreme Archery additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.

Range damage lenses do not currently exist.

Matthew Hayward wrote: One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.

Adding this rule would needlessly burden the DM and frustrate players. I am tired of retroactively fixing tokens that are too powerful down the line. It is getting pretty sour already this year. Can we just balance them now?

I do not like this token and would prefer to use the design space for something else. If it has to exist, I would propose either:

  • Have a damage wheel of (4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4) to lower the power and add in extra "fixed fate" flavor.
  • Have it not be affected by any ranged damage boosting tokens.

Please keep this in line with other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
Last edit: by Philip Goodman.
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2019 Ultra Rare Token Images! 1 year 1 month ago #180

Phrash wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can, but if you do, you're trying to slide a 15+ to deal what? 12 damage with Boots of the Four Winds?

7 without?

+2 with Draco-Lich?

Unless you think you'd be packing stuff like Bracers of Supreme Archery, Ring of the Yeti, Ring of Holly, some ranged damage lenses or whatever - but if you're doing that wouldn't you be building on DEX anyway and using a ranged weapon with a better damage wheel?

Just because it's currently hard to build for ranged damage does not mean that it is okay to print a token that is way out of bounds compared to other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


What do you mean by "way out of bounds"?

This token gives you a shot to do ranged damage bonus + 6.66 on a slide of 15+.

By what criteria do you find this to be substantially more powerful than say, a free melee attack with melee damage bonuses (which easily climb into the 20s) on an initiative roll of 19+? Or +3 damage to all melee attacks in the melee off hand? Or +6 damage on a secondary ranged hit with Charm of Shadow Shot?

For this token to be the one you want, two things have to come together:

A. Your ranged to-hit vs. Monster AC must require more than 16+
B. Either your melee to-hit is even worse, or the monster is immune to melee, or your melee damage bonus is less than your ranged damage bonus.

I would argue that BOTH of these being true at the same time is very unlikely - either you've built around melee in which case you want to be doing melee, or you've built around ranged, in which case your ranged to-hit is going to be better than 15+ anyway.

This token seems mostly useful when you've built around melee and the monster is immune to melee.

When tokens are printed in the future that adds to ranged damage, this token would become even more ridiculous. I do not want this token's existence to be a reason to not print bonus ranged damage tokens.


Bracers of Archery is what would be used; Bracers of Supreme Archery only additionally adds +2 to hit which would not benefit this token.


Of course bracers of Supreme Archery benefit this token! This token doesn't say "Only ever hit on a 15+" - it says "always hit on a 15+". If your to-hit number is less than 15 (as it could be with things like Bracers of Supreme Archery) you get all the benefit.


Range damage lenses do not currently exist.


Good point - I was thinking of the ranged to-hit lenses.

Matthew Hayward wrote: One note: it's a non-magical weapon - if it gets out of hand one can always give monsters immunity to non-magical weapons at HC+.

At Normal I think this is OK - either players are playing on Easy Mode on purpose with UR+ builds, in which case who cares if it's too easy. Or this is the treasured possession of some red build player who pulls it out when a sure thing is needed.

Adding this rule would needlessly burden the DM and frustrate players. I am tired of retroactively fixing tokens that are too powerful down the line. It is getting pretty sour already this year. Can we just balance them now?

I do not like this token and would prefer to use the design space for something else. If it has to exist, I would propose to either:

  • Have a damage wheel of (4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4) to lower the power and add in extra "fixed fate" flavor.
  • Have it not be affected by any ranged damage boosting tokens.

Please keep this in line with other Ultra Rare ranged weapons.


Having looked at damage wheels on other URs, I agree the wheel on this should take a nerf - right now it's up with other +2 weapons and I agree that doesn't seem quite right.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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