TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

Matt Goodman wrote:

Phrash wrote: Happy to see the Shaman's Belt polymorph activation as a free action.

19-20 on Charm of the Quickstrike is too low of a chance. With it triggering 10% of the time, chances of running 6 combats (two dungeons) and having it not trigger once would be above 53% (.9^6).

+2 Death Flail -- it has the potential to ruin combat and I was hoping to see another monk Flurry of Blows Ultra Rare weapon before another Ultra Rare 2-hander.

Fixed Fate Lt. Crossbow -- This token is MUCH too powerful in my opinion. I do not like enabling players to ignore ranged to-hit stats with "always hits on 15-20" with no downside. On nightmare difficulty, where the enemy AC values have recently ranged from 25 to 35, this token would provide between +10 to +20 to hit. That's way too high! The damage wheel (average 6.7) is higher than the +2 Keen Longbow (average 6.5) while usable by 5 more classes!

Hat of the Hellway -- I know we are heading into a very hot place, but I was hoping to get a different effect than -2 fire damage. I'd like to pitch the idea of self healing on hit again.

It's late, and I should be sleeping, but I wanted to echo this as strongly as I can.

I don't care about the mechanic of the charm of quick strike. I think it will eat up valuable combat time. However, in its current form, the likelihood of this happening is very minimal. Interesting new idea though.

+2 Death Flail. Bad, bad, bad. Auto killing any monster? Great for the barbarian, but at the expense of fun for the rest of the party? And another two-handed weapon. Do we really need it?

Fixed fate crossbow. HORRIBLE. Way overpowered! If you stat a character for melee, you should ALWAYS have an idea for the times you need range. The auto hit is completely ridiculous. A character can actually have a negative dexterity, yet still use this to great effect. "but strength isn't added to damage", true, but boots of the four winds and dracolich claw charm do. So that's +7 damage right there. The fact that it does better than the +2 Keen Longbow is crazy. I would drop this completely. Barring that, have a minimum dexterity requirement, less damage wheel, and auto hits on 17-20.

Hat of the Hellway. As it stands, there's so much fire resistance on tokens, it's a little overwhelming and lackluster. Healing with a successful hit is an interesting mechanic that's been done successfully before (ring of dark health)

I agree on the Fixed Fate crossbow. It seems to really limit Dungeon design space. Does it automatically hit on rooms where ranged normally isn't allowed? Does it automatically hit in situations like phasing or invisible or displaced monsters? I also think it should be limited to the classes that can normally use a crossbow.

Adam Guay wrote: As it is now with the tome you get a focus bonus to all spells.... if it was just auto succeed you only get the bonus to spells with a skill check. Either way I'm happy with almost any variation of the token as long as it doesnt cost hp/time to use it. A few times during gen con I was in a room with a DJ struggling to add up combat dsmage....the last thi g I want to do is wait 30 seconds for them to be able to get to the skill check. It's not always the player waiting the groups time sometimes it's out of the partys control.

...you said “I was in a room with a DJ struggling to add up combat dsmage....”

I think that’s maybe your problem right there.... I had no idea that we’re putting DJs in the dungeon in the first place - much less that they were taking post as combat board overseers! How’d I miss that?

DJ jazzy Jeff could take a WHOLE new meaning....!

Mixmaster in the soundgarden of the dungeon of my mind... I can see a fire element or a ghost dancing around going “...can’t touch this!”

Grekel! wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Picc wrote:

Grekel! wrote: IMHO, all of these things add to the challenge, and to the fun...

I'm glad that's your perspective, it's a good one and I share it but not everyone can. Some folks get legit freaked out by things that dont make logical sense and items that let them feel like they have a safe out help a lot. Sure they aren't for everyone, and yes its bypassing part of the game, but so is letting people with mobility issues walk around an alternative route rather then push through an inflatable membrane.


I'm also fine if the token has a drawback or cost, I just cant think of one that fits a focus item that will probably be used for healing half the time.

There it is again. People imposing “mandatory fun,” for our own good.

A lot of people know my wife has Parkinson’s. She has balance and dexterity issues. Thankfully, DMs don’t give us a bad time when I help her keep her balance while crossing frozen streams or lava pools and whatnot. The only way she would consider playing Rogue is with the Crowbar. She can’t even play Monk or Ranger because trying to use two pucks is too taxing.

The puzzles and skill tests may be part of the “fun” for most, but not everyone.

But even if people don’t have a physical or mental condition that makes certain aspects of the game uncomfortable or impossible, SO WHAT? And I mean that in the sense, how arrogant to veto a token just because it doesn’t seem fun TO YOU?

Did anyone else read what Jeff wrote about this token, and why he designed it the way he did? It has meaning to him. It’s the only way my wife would consider playing a memory class. If you don’t like it, I sincerely suggest you just don’t buy the monkey fighting thing

First - I did read what Jeff wrote about the token. I think that’s an awesome tribute!

Second - I am truly sorry for conveying any impression of arrogance... not my intent at all. As this is an open forum discussion, into which all of our participation has been invited and indulged, I am choosing to participate, discuss, and voice my opinion. Also - as the second iteration of the token removes the skill check bypass, it must at least in some way still be in keeping with what Jeff thinks to be an appropriate tribute...

Third - while I don’t agree with the entirety of your position - make no mistake that I respect it. I only would ask reciprocity in kind

Fourth - you mentioned the Rod of Persuasion... honestly I can’t think of a more perfect argument in support of what I’ve been advocating all along...
Rod - UR token that bypasses a skill check for a single class... no other functionality and there is a penalty - that sets a precedent for future tokens of a similar nature. Speaking to precedents - “of Focus”... By the existing tokens of similar naming format - gives + to healing and damage... I just think if the tome is a focus item it should stay in keeping with the established items of Focus.

Fifth - I never suggested vetoing anything... just discussed possible modifications...

Last - all of this is opinion and ideas in a discussion format. Not intend to malign, demean, or otherwise impugn- and very certainly not to convey arrogance. If I make reference to the “fun of the game” it is part my personal opinion and part what I observe of folks around me... not intentionally a blanket statement to cover every person or circumstance...

May all of our discussion create the best possible tokens for the game to use and enjoy.

I sometimes wonder if I go to far when arguing during token design. If that is ever the case I sincerely apologize. I think everyone on here is advocating in ernest for the improvement of the game, and I really hope they dont stop. If you feel strongly about something please continue to speak up. If you think I'm, wrong, harping, or beating a dead horse, please tell me. And as others have said many times, thank you to Jeff for giving us a chance to voice our opinions and be part of the process.

Grekel! wrote:
Fourth - you mentioned the Rod of Persuasion... honestly I can’t think of a more perfect argument in support of what I’ve been advocating all along...
Rod - UR token that bypasses a skill check for a single class... no other functionality and there is a penalty - that sets a precedent for future tokens of a similar nature. Speaking to precedents - “of Focus”... By the existing tokens of similar naming format - gives + to healing and damage... I just think if the tome is a focus item it should stay in keeping with the established items of Focus.

Thanks for trying to diffuse the tension. Discussion has been getting very heated.

I just wanted to take a second to point out that the UR rod does have another functionality as a weapon. Even if it doesn't gets used for that purpose much.

But I totally understand the point you're trying to make. I agree that it establishes a strong precedent for bypassing skill checks at a cost, per a single class. A slotless skill-check-bypassing, no-downside Tome that covers nearly every class seems much. No disrespect intended, whatsoever. I know it's a tribute token.


Anywho, I'll just back into a hedge and disappear now.

Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?

I didn't read back in the post but did anyone else see that the UR for druid/rogue are both still belt/shoes at UR and then both necklaces in Relic and Legendary?

Picc wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Picc wrote:

Grekel! wrote: IMHO, all of these things add to the challenge, and to the fun...

I'm glad that's your perspective, it's a good one and I share it but not everyone can. Some folks get legit freaked out by things that dont make logical sense and items that let them feel like they have a safe out help a lot. Sure they aren't for everyone, and yes its bypassing part of the game, but so is letting people with mobility issues walk around an alternative route rather then push through an inflatable membrane.


I'm also fine if the token has a drawback or cost, I just cant think of one that fits a focus item that will probably be used for healing half the time.

There it is again. People imposing “mandatory fun,” for our own good.

A lot of people know my wife has Parkinson’s. She has balance and dexterity issues. Thankfully, DMs don’t give us a bad time when I help her keep her balance while crossing frozen streams or lava pools and whatnot. The only way she would consider playing Rogue is with the Crowbar. She can’t even play Monk or Ranger because trying to use two pucks is too taxing.

The puzzles and skill tests may be part of the “fun” for most, but not everyone.

But even if people don’t have a physical or mental condition that makes certain aspects of the game uncomfortable or impossible, SO WHAT? And I mean that in the sense, how arrogant to veto a token just because it doesn’t seem fun TO YOU?

Did anyone else read what Jeff wrote about this token, and why he designed it the way he did? It has meaning to him. It’s the only way my wife would consider playing a memory class. If you don’t like it, I sincerely suggest you just don’t buy the monkey fighting thing

First - I did read what Jeff wrote about the token. I think that’s an awesome tribute!

Second - I am truly sorry for conveying any impression of arrogance... not my intent at all. As this is an open forum discussion, into which all of our participation has been invited and indulged, I am choosing to participate, discuss, and voice my opinion. Also - as the second iteration of the token removes the skill check bypass, it must at least in some way still be in keeping with what Jeff thinks to be an appropriate tribute...

Third - while I don’t agree with the entirety of your position - make no mistake that I respect it. I only would ask reciprocity in kind

Fourth - you mentioned the Rod of Persuasion... honestly I can’t think of a more perfect argument in support of what I’ve been advocating all along...
Rod - UR token that bypasses a skill check for a single class... no other functionality and there is a penalty - that sets a precedent for future tokens of a similar nature. Speaking to precedents - “of Focus”... By the existing tokens of similar naming format - gives + to healing and damage... I just think if the tome is a focus item it should stay in keeping with the established items of Focus.

Fifth - I never suggested vetoing anything... just discussed possible modifications...

Last - all of this is opinion and ideas in a discussion format. Not intend to malign, demean, or otherwise impugn- and very certainly not to convey arrogance. If I make reference to the “fun of the game” it is part my personal opinion and part what I observe of folks around me... not intentionally a blanket statement to cover every person or circumstance...

May all of our discussion create the best possible tokens for the game to use and enjoy.

I sometimes wonder if I go to far when arguing during token design. If that is ever the case I sincerely apologize. I think everyone on here is advocating in ernest for the improvement of the game, and I really hope they dont stop. If you feel strongly about something please continue to speak up. If you think I'm, wrong, harping, or beating a dead horse, please tell me. And as others have said many times, thank you to Jeff for giving us a chance to voice our opinions and be part of the process.

+1 - agreed and well-said. I’m sure no one is trying to be mean-spirited or ugly... it is simply a topic that generates a lot of passion... and without that we would not get the degree of refinement that we do. It is a crucible... and through the years - it has allowed creativity to flourish and produced amazing and fascinating things for all of TD to enjoy. And we all know this in our minds and hearts... I just thought it was worth saying...

Grekel! wrote:

Fiddy wrote: If spell resistance is going away (which is how I'm currently reading Jeff's post where he discusses modifying the Eldritch Set), I'd like us to swap out the reprint of the Charm of Spell Swapping for a revised Charm of the Cabal. if spell resistance going away, this charm becomes useless and makes the Cabal Set a weaker choice than it already is.

As for powers, I'm not sure. But I'll toss this out as a potential to start the conversation:

Charm of the Cabal:
Effect based on number of CotC in party.
+2 healing / damage bonus to:
1-2: Scrolls
3-4: & Wands
5: & Spells Cast as Scroll


And of course the intent is to allow turning in old Charms of the Cabal.

Good catch!!! +1!

I'd much rather see this in a new/different slot so it is more possible to get the Cabal set power.

Locking in Charm + Gloves + Wrists for a bunch of lackluster bonuses is an extremely high price to pay for that ability.

I also think the proposed token us underpowered - consider that an exalted slotless token gives you +2 damage and healing on scrolls and protects them as well. How many spells cast as a scroll do you fire off a dungeon? 3?

I'd redesign this as:
+3 focus to
1st tier synergy: scrolls and wands
2nd tier synergy: spells too
3rd tier synergy: May read scroll/use wand as FA 1/room

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?

Honestly I'm starting to think this item is somewhat OP as you can just build strength and even tank your dex with +- items and still be ok in ranged. Maybe we should just reprint the mighty shortbow this year to pair off with last years mighty long bow.

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: Aside from Clerics, is there any reason you wouldn’t take the new UR Crossbow over the Legendary +5 Thor’s hammer in NM+ runs?

Just so. I chose to make Thor's Hammer rather than Welfor's. I may be regretting that if this crossbow remains as it currently is.

What if we made the damage from the Fixed Hit Crossbow Also fixed. So you can always hit 25%-50% of the time but you only ever get the damage printed on the crossbow. Can anyone still think of a way to break it?

Picc wrote: What if we made the damage from the Fixed Hit Crossbow Also fixed. So you can always hit 25%-50% of the time but you only ever get the damage printed on the crossbow. Can anyone still think of a way to break it?

I think it's a really cool token, and a neat idea.

Previously, I was only thinking about this in terms of a dedicated ranged build - in which case, the Fixed Fate mechanic doesn't matter. Those folks already have their to-hit pumped to outrageous numbers.

I see where the issue sets in with regards to Strength players that own Draco-Lich and Bot4W.

How many other tokens do we have that support pure across-the-board damage increases like these two tokens?