TOPIC: 2019 Ultra Rare Token Images!

Brad Mortensen wrote: All I know is: last year I was very stoked by the set. Good stuff, loved the theme, and Thor. Couldn’t wait!

And every year that we help Jeff with the set is a blast. It’s amazing he lets us contribute so much to the game. It’s fun, and I’m honored to be able to toss in my two cents and (sometimes) see my thoughts make it into the tokens. (Thank you, Jeff)

This year, not. Don’t know if it’s the contrast with 2018, or my disappointment in some of the transmutes and the nerfings, or that I just had a birthday that ends in zero, but I really just want this whole process to be over so the bickering can stop, if only for a few days. I’m just over it all.

Carry on

Don't get cynical Brad. That's how despair starts to set in. Besides we need all the voices of reason we can get during design.

Bob Chasan wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Picc wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: For everybody who wanted Gregor's Tome to auto-pass skill tests so you could play memorization classes: you can do that now. It really isn't a big deal to fail some skill tests in my opinion. I have a horrible memory but I still play them from time to time.

So your argument is suck it up because I do?

For some people the possibility of failing a test in public is a big enough deal to turn them off the class and the game entirely.

I think what he is saying is don't do the skill test because you would prefer not to. It was -3 net before but if you equip the Tome it is now only a -1. 1 point is negligible.

Ed

Wow Ed,
That's a Helluva argument. Buy this UR and you'll only have a -1

Yes, because today that person (and I) aren't doing the skill challenge. For me, not because I can't because time is more valuable. Even with a rapid response there still the DM fumbling around for the skill test chart/leaf/bead/lore, picking one, then asking me. So for us it is +2 off a -3.

But that is why this game is great - each can play it their own way and justify their build accordingly.

Ed

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: If it’s not too late, can we tone down Kilt of Barrelbane to:

5 str, -3 dex and -2 con

Or

4 str, -2 dex and con?

This would make the transmute much more appealing and besides - jumping 6 str in one slot at ur (even with substantial costs) is perhaps just too good at UR

Wow if that's not an argument for making the eldritched better I dont know what is. Not enough takers on the transmute, let's make the components worse.

I'd argue that even if the str kilt were made substantially worse then its brothers the eldritched should still be 6. Several of the boots were only +3 damage but the tide still rose on the transmute to +5 because of the two handers just so there wasnt an aspect on which the transmute was worse then the sum of its parts.

You make take it that way, but that’s not the way I mean it.

I was hoping the str kilt would not have 6 str. I think that’s too good for a UR, even with drawbacks.

A new player with 1 str kilt is going to be +1/+1 away from the legendary Surtrs Girdle at melee, which is in what I Always thought was in a more powerful waist slot.


If the UR str belt were 4 or 5 there would be no reason to not upgrade to the transmute.

I was hoping the final kilt would be +2 to str dex con or +2 str, 3 dex, and 4 con.

+5 to any is already silly good - the fact people maybe don’t like it and maybe would prefer the Ur shows the Urs are too good - not that the transmute is bad.

I got how you meant it. I just 100% disagree. Amulet of the champion, Stus' and Valhalla all grant at least +6 stats. Is that to powerful for an UR, maybe but I kinda think that ship has sailed. Now granted the neck is also traditionally a stronger slot then pants, however I still think an eldritched item should be the equal of those URs.

What is your opinion about Surtrs Girdle of Fire Giant Strength?

Underpowered?

Not at all, just right for its slot in fact. The most strength you can get from an UR belt is 4 with a downside, Frost Giant relic is +5 no downside, legendary is 7 no downside. Seems right to me.

The big difference between belts and kilts is we have +6 kilts with a downside at UR so I would expect one step up from that to be either +6 no downside or +7 with a downside

I don't think that's at all inconsistent.

Picc wrote: Not at all, just right for its slot in fact. The most strength you can get from an UR belt is 4 with a downside, Frost Giant relic is +5 no downside, legendary is 7 no downside. Seems right to me.

The big difference between belts and kilts is we have +6 kilts with a downside at UR so I would expect one step up from that to be either +6 no downside or +7 with a downside

I don't think that's at all inconsistent.

Picc all slots are not equal. The kilts SHOULD have been at most +4 and a downside, then the Eldritch could have been +5 no downside and everyone would be fine. But because they were OP and went +6 now people want the Eldritch to be +6 or even +8.

I see this as an opportunity for people that have the UR to keep them and benefit from an OP token. Or TPTB could just recall all of the Kilt 2017/2018 URs and issue replacements. Just so it seems inline. I don't think anyone prefers that solution.

But that is just my opinion.

Ed

MasterED wrote: Since the Tome was overpowered by having both abilities (Auto-succeed and +x) it now leaves TPTB open to make a UR that is just Auto-succeed (and it sounds like it might be used).

I love to see token design leave room for cool ideas in the next year.... and to me, this seems like a really cool possibility for future consideration.

Picc wrote:

Raven wrote: I'd definitely wear this over Earcuff of Inspiration, and am seriously considering it for my Paladin build where the AC is paramount.

Shhhh. There was a "Clerical" error, which has me playing the wrong class while I hide from the law.
I mean.... for when I'm doing a 5-man run, and someone has got to protect the squishy Wizard. yeah.

MasterED wrote:

Picc wrote: Not at all, just right for its slot in fact. The most strength you can get from an UR belt is 4 with a downside, Frost Giant relic is +5 no downside, legendary is 7 no downside. Seems right to me.

The big difference between belts and kilts is we have +6 kilts with a downside at UR so I would expect one step up from that to be either +6 no downside or +7 with a downside

I don't think that's at all inconsistent.

Picc all slots are not equal.

I know, I'm by no means saying they are.

MasterED wrote: The kilts SHOULD have been at most +4 and a downside, then the Eldritch could have been +5 no downside and everyone would be fine.

I agree, but they weren't and now we have to deal with the fall out.

And at some level your even arguing that the combined kilt should be better then the sum of its parts. I'm just arguing for it to effectively stay the same (unless you think that anyone's build is really being hurt by those negatives, but thats another thread.)

MasterED wrote: But because they were OP and went +6 now people want the Eldritch to be +6 or even +8.

Well I agree that +8 is a step to far. Flat 6 choose 1 is basically just what we had before. And I think we should consider ourselves lucky that there is a negative we can easily drop off or people really would want +8 or some other power added on.

MasterED wrote:
I see this as an opportunity for people that have the UR to keep them and benefit from an OP token.

LoDs would like a word. I mean seriously have you ever known an eldritched component that people wanted to keep over the completed item before?

MasterED wrote:
Or TPTB could just recall all of the Kilt 2017/2018 URs and issue replacements. Just so it seems inline. I don't think anyone prefers that solution.

I'd be fine with it but I feel like if we pull back to many mistakes its going to do a lot more harm then good to people confidence about tokens. Were mistakes made, sure. Are the kilts over powered, ya probably. Do I wish the situation were different, of course. Do I think we have to live with it, ya sadly I think we do.

MasterED wrote: But that is just my opinion.

Ed

That's fair, your entitled to your opinion. It may well even be the correct one so I hope you keep advocating for it. I'll do the same until someone convinces me what I'm advocating for isn't in the best interest of the game.

Picc wrote:
That's fair, your entitled to your opinion. It may well even be the correct one so I hope you keep advocating for it. I'll do the same until someone convinces me what I'm advocating for isn't in the best interest of the game.

I suppose it depends on what you think the game's interest is.

Is it in selling more Strength kilts in order to have more eldritch kilts made? Then we need to make sure as many people as possible want to make the Eldritch.

Is it in reining in how strong items are, and allowing us to grow things slowly rather than by leaps and bounds? If so, we may want to keep the eldritch kilt a little lower in power.

Is it something else I'm not considering right now? If so, there might be a better option.

Just to be clear, Ring of the Yeti does not work for spells, correct?

Previous tokens have said "physical missiles"

With blessed wind and tempest gloves, I'm just wanting to be sure.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Picc wrote:
That's fair, your entitled to your opinion. It may well even be the correct one so I hope you keep advocating for it. I'll do the same until someone convinces me what I'm advocating for isn't in the best interest of the game.

I suppose it depends on what you think the game's interest is.

Is it in selling more Strength kilts in order to have more eldritch kilts made? Then we need to make sure as many people as possible want to make the Eldritch.

Is it in reining in how strong items are, and allowing us to grow things slowly rather than by leaps and bounds? If so, we may want to keep the eldritch kilt a little lower in power.

Is it something else I'm not considering right now? If so, there might be a better option.

I guess the primary 3rd axis I'd think about is internal consistency. For each of the other two non-premium Eldritch items (the rings and the boots), the combined item was an undeniable upgrade from the UR that was in that slot (2H boots is a slight mark against that argument, but the combined item counted towards the Eldritch set bonus, so that's a bit of a wash). The kilts are going from a +6 to a +5 on the stat they grant. That's not an undeniable upgrade.

Now, the above statement is slightly unfair. The kilts are a hard problem to tackle, specifically because (unlike all other Eldritch set items that have been printed up to this point) the component tokens each had a built-in drawback. For some classes, like Wizard, the drawback was negligible on the kilt they wanted to wear. For others (like my Fighter friend who used a Kilt to get the stats for Thor's), the tradeoff was actually felt.

Is a +5 to your choice with zero drawbacks better than any of the components? In a strict "sum up the stats" way, absolutely. But it FEELS wrong, because instead of enabling a flat +3 bonus to whatever the relevant stat you choose is, we're into the weird +2/+3 territory that odd numbers hit on this game. Which means that, for some builds, a Kilt which had no relevant drawbacks (see: Wizard) may go from an effective +3 to an effective +2 to the stat they want... which IS a downgrade, and is pretty crap for what is supposed to be an exiting thing for any player to acquire. This upgrade should be a windmill slam for anyone that built it up... not something that I'm needing to run math on to see if it's actually the right play for my kit.

Leaving my Wizard nerf rants from other threads aside, this one is actually a relatively difficult decision for me to make for my build. I'm nowhere near maxed out on what I can add to my kit, but I AM in that weird gap where if I transmute this kilt, I'm effectively -5HP with my current build. With the new Eldritch update, is -5HP worth the +1 damage I'll get from it? I'm pretty sure it is for me, but given that (with the insane nerf to wands) I'm now needing to commit to MEC just to keep consumable costs down, I need to take into account if that 5HP would get me to another breakpoint. And I shouldn't have to be making that decision for a UR versus an Eldritch item. Legendary VS Eldritch? Sure. But not at the UR level.

So, i think the +5 version of the kilt is plenty good, but for those complaining that it isnt still +6, would you be happy if the eldritch kilt still had a drawback?

Perhaps +6 to your choice str, dex, or con. & -1 to the other two

Or +7 to your choice str, dex, or con. & -2 to the other two
?

Just speaking for myself, I don't think it should have a drawback. But I do think it should be an easy choice over any of the individual components, and +5 doesn't do that.

Raven wrote:

MasterED wrote: Since the Tome was overpowered by having both abilities (Auto-succeed and +x) it now leaves TPTB open to make a UR that is just Auto-succeed (and it sounds like it might be used).

I love to see token design leave room for cool ideas in the next year.... and to me, this seems like a really cool possibility for future consideration.

Picc wrote:

Raven wrote: I'd definitely wear this over Earcuff of Inspiration, and am seriously considering it for my Paladin build where the AC is paramount.

Shhhh. There was a "Clerical" error, which has me playing the wrong class while I hide from the law.
I mean.... for when I'm doing a 5-man run, and someone has got to protect the squishy Wizard. yeah.

I expect someday we will find all the paladins in their keep laying in pools of blood. Nightshade outside with a sign 'Paladin for hire; 5000gp/dungeon' saying "hey, supply and demand. Im a slave to the market as much as you."