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TOPIC: Notes about Tokens for 2019

Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #85

Rob F wrote: Comment regarding LoDS: I still don't see why people aren't happy with the new change. It's a UR. The Shirt of Focus at the UR level is +2 to Healing. The Baton of Focus at the UR level is +2 to Healing. At the Rare level Healing items are +1. I get that it got nerfed but it never should have been more then +2 in the first place. Plus healers now have the new Tome which gives another +2. And my guess is that one day there will be a Legendary item which bumps up the Healing bonus appropriately. Let's not lobby too hard to improve it more only to have to nerf it a second time.


I'm with you Rob.

It's been a little weird for years that I'm much more likely to die or have a TPK at the Normal level and everyone survives, typically with full health, at the Nightmare level. Now I feel like there might actually be some risk.

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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #86

I wanted to present a couple thoughts on the changes on eldritch items and on the LoDS.
Eldritch bonuses - as a newer player (4-5 years), the ability to get eldritch items without spending thousands in the secondary market is limited. I understand keeping the vets engaged but it would be good for the game if there wasn't always a gulf between the 10 year vets and the newer players. The design where having 4 or 5 eldritch items to get to the max bonus always promotes that gulf in a way that seems to make playing at higher levels inaccessible for players in their first 5 years.

I recommend that that the eldritch bonuses cap at 2 or 3 items. The benefit to having more than that is slot efficiency. The Ring is a terrible slot to use for an eldritch item so people with 4 items could choose just not to use the ring - use the kilt, the boots, and the rod (1 non-competitive slot - legs, 1 BIS slot feet, and 1 un-slotted). Setting the maximum cap at 3 makes it somewhat attainable to hit 3 for someone who started in the past year or two by getting the kilt and teeth then only buying 1 secondary market item (as opposed to three).

The new system incentivizes someone to get to 2 eldritch items and stop because it will cost another $5K plus to get near the others knowing they will be significantly less powerful than their peers. It's a core philosophy design issue that should be considered.

LoDS - I agree the item was overpowered, especially with the 10 point eldritch pool. I agree with nerfing it. With that said, the combat design for the rooms has morphed since those items were originally introduced to push for nightmare runs to have both a cleric and druid both set up as substantial healers to keep the party up (especially with MEC, etc). Creatures do more damage, hit more often, etc assuming that healing would be there for Nightmare+ levels (remember Into the shadowlands where 30 pts of splash damage was being tossed out commonly to multiple players each time?)

Will there be adjustments to the damage parties take with the healing reduced by 50+%? If there is, the druid changes look great because it would mean a druid is just a supplemental healer if needed but gets to shine in combat roles (especially while polymorphed). Alternately, is the design philosophy more for the players to self heal via potions, scrolls, etc? The change seems to impact druid more than any other class but goes to core party design in the future.

Input there would be appreciated!

Overall, we appreciate the design work being done - a lot of thought and effort is clear. Thank you for listening to us and our input!

Fred
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #87

Fred K wrote: I wanted to present a couple thoughts on the changes on eldritch items and on the LoDS.
Eldritch bonuses - as a newer player (4-5 years), the ability to get eldritch items without spending thousands in the secondary market is limited. I understand keeping the vets engaged but it would be good for the game if there wasn't always a gulf between the 10 year vets and the newer players. The design where having 4 or 5 eldritch items to get to the max bonus always promotes that gulf in a way that seems to make playing at higher levels inaccessible for players in their first 5 years.

I recommend that that the eldritch bonuses cap at 2 or 3 items. The benefit to having more than that is slot efficiency. The Ring is a terrible slot to use for an eldritch item so people with 4 items could choose just not to use the ring - use the kilt, the boots, and the rod (1 non-competitive slot - legs, 1 BIS slot feet, and 1 un-slotted). Setting the maximum cap at 3 makes it somewhat attainable to hit 3 for someone who started in the past year or two by getting the kilt and teeth then only buying 1 secondary market item (as opposed to three).

The new system incentivizes someone to get to 2 eldritch items and stop because it will cost another $5K plus to get near the others knowing they will be significantly less powerful than their peers. It's a core philosophy design issue that should be considered.

LoDS - I agree the item was overpowered, especially with the 10 point eldritch pool. I agree with nerfing it. With that said, the combat design for the rooms has morphed since those items were originally introduced to push for nightmare runs to have both a cleric and druid both set up as substantial healers to keep the party up (especially with MEC, etc). Creatures do more damage, hit more often, etc assuming that healing would be there for Nightmare+ levels (remember Into the shadowlands where 30 pts of splash damage was being tossed out commonly to multiple players each time?)

Will there be adjustments to the damage parties take with the healing reduced by 50+%? If there is, the druid changes look great because it would mean a druid is just a supplemental healer if needed but gets to shine in combat roles (especially while polymorphed). Alternately, is the design philosophy more for the players to self heal via potions, scrolls, etc? The change seems to impact druid more than any other class but goes to core party design in the future.

Input there would be appreciated!

Overall, we appreciate the design work being done - a lot of thought and effort is clear. Thank you for listening to us and our input!

Fred


Fred, I agree completely regarding Eldritch. I've also proposed capping it at the 3 item level, with no additional healing or damage bonuses for 4 or 5 items. That will help keep the totals under control. The healing reduction is offset by the bonus damage that Jeff added in. Keeping it as currently designed actually makes the power imbalance worse, because the 5 item level has all the healing that it had before the change, and a lot of bonus damage added in on top of that.

It doesn't seem that people with 4 (and soon 5) Eldritch tokens have too much ground to complain, since there were never any extra bonuses guaranteed for those levels.

It would help with "slot lock" also. With the bonuses as now defined, someone would have Boots/Kilt/Ring slot locked down for the five item bonus. With it capped at three, there is more flexibility to have one or two of those slots filled with something else and still get the max Eldritch Bonus.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #88

Mike Steele wrote:

Fred K wrote: I wanted to present a couple thoughts on the changes on eldritch items and on the LoDS.
Eldritch bonuses - as a newer player (4-5 years), the ability to get eldritch items without spending thousands in the secondary market is limited. I understand keeping the vets engaged but it would be good for the game if there wasn't always a gulf between the 10 year vets and the newer players. The design where having 4 or 5 eldritch items to get to the max bonus always promotes that gulf in a way that seems to make playing at higher levels inaccessible for players in their first 5 years.

I recommend that that the eldritch bonuses cap at 2 or 3 items. The benefit to having more than that is slot efficiency. The Ring is a terrible slot to use for an eldritch item so people with 4 items could choose just not to use the ring - use the kilt, the boots, and the rod (1 non-competitive slot - legs, 1 BIS slot feet, and 1 un-slotted). Setting the maximum cap at 3 makes it somewhat attainable to hit 3 for someone who started in the past year or two by getting the kilt and teeth then only buying 1 secondary market item (as opposed to three).

The new system incentivizes someone to get to 2 eldritch items and stop because it will cost another $5K plus to get near the others knowing they will be significantly less powerful than their peers. It's a core philosophy design issue that should be considered.

LoDS - I agree the item was overpowered, especially with the 10 point eldritch pool. I agree with nerfing it. With that said, the combat design for the rooms has morphed since those items were originally introduced to push for nightmare runs to have both a cleric and druid both set up as substantial healers to keep the party up (especially with MEC, etc). Creatures do more damage, hit more often, etc assuming that healing would be there for Nightmare+ levels (remember Into the shadowlands where 30 pts of splash damage was being tossed out commonly to multiple players each time?)

Will there be adjustments to the damage parties take with the healing reduced by 50+%? If there is, the druid changes look great because it would mean a druid is just a supplemental healer if needed but gets to shine in combat roles (especially while polymorphed). Alternately, is the design philosophy more for the players to self heal via potions, scrolls, etc? The change seems to impact druid more than any other class but goes to core party design in the future.

Input there would be appreciated!

Overall, we appreciate the design work being done - a lot of thought and effort is clear. Thank you for listening to us and our input!

Fred


Fred, I agree completely regarding Eldritch. I've also proposed capping it at the 3 item level, with no additional healing or damage bonuses for 4 or 5 items. That will help keep the totals under control. The healing reduction is offset by the bonus damage that Jeff added in. Keeping it as currently designed actually makes the power imbalance worse, because the 5 item level has all the healing that it had before the change, and a lot of bonus damage added in on top of that.

It doesn't seem that people with 4 (and soon 5) Eldritch tokens have too much ground to complain, since there were never any extra bonuses guaranteed for those levels.

It would help with "slot lock" also. With the bonuses as now defined, someone would have Boots/Kilt/Ring slot locked down for the five item bonus. With it capped at three, there is more flexibility to have one or two of those slots filled with something else and still get the max Eldritch Bonus.


Jeff did explicitly say there would be a 4 set bonus. A 5 was never promised.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #89

Fred K wrote: I wanted to present a couple thoughts on the changes on eldritch items and on the LoDS.
Eldritch bonuses - as a newer player (4-5 years), the ability to get eldritch items without spending thousands in the secondary market is limited. I understand keeping the vets engaged but it would be good for the game if there wasn't always a gulf between the 10 year vets and the newer players. The design where having 4 or 5 eldritch items to get to the max bonus always promotes that gulf in a way that seems to make playing at higher levels inaccessible for players in their first 5 years.

I recommend that that the eldritch bonuses cap at 2 or 3 items. The benefit to having more than that is slot efficiency. The Ring is a terrible slot to use for an eldritch item so people with 4 items could choose just not to use the ring - use the kilt, the boots, and the rod (1 non-competitive slot - legs, 1 BIS slot feet, and 1 un-slotted). Setting the maximum cap at 3 makes it somewhat attainable to hit 3 for someone who started in the past year or two by getting the kilt and teeth then only buying 1 secondary market item (as opposed to three).

The new system incentivizes someone to get to 2 eldritch items and stop because it will cost another $5K plus to get near the others knowing they will be significantly less powerful than their peers. It's a core philosophy design issue that should be considered.

LoDS - I agree the item was overpowered, especially with the 10 point eldritch pool. I agree with nerfing it. With that said, the combat design for the rooms has morphed since those items were originally introduced to push for nightmare runs to have both a cleric and druid both set up as substantial healers to keep the party up (especially with MEC, etc). Creatures do more damage, hit more often, etc assuming that healing would be there for Nightmare+ levels (remember Into the shadowlands where 30 pts of splash damage was being tossed out commonly to multiple players each time?)

Will there be adjustments to the damage parties take with the healing reduced by 50+%? If there is, the druid changes look great because it would mean a druid is just a supplemental healer if needed but gets to shine in combat roles (especially while polymorphed). Alternately, is the design philosophy more for the players to self heal via potions, scrolls, etc? The change seems to impact druid more than any other class but goes to core party design in the future.

Input there would be appreciated!

Overall, we appreciate the design work being done - a lot of thought and effort is clear. Thank you for listening to us and our input!

Fred


If we were going to do that, I would submit that the Kilt and teeth should start a new set, rather than add to elemental eldritch.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #90

Mike Steele wrote:

Fred K wrote: I wanted to present a couple thoughts on the changes on eldritch items and on the LoDS.
Eldritch bonuses - as a newer player (4-5 years), the ability to get eldritch items without spending thousands in the secondary market is limited. I understand keeping the vets engaged but it would be good for the game if there wasn't always a gulf between the 10 year vets and the newer players. The design where having 4 or 5 eldritch items to get to the max bonus always promotes that gulf in a way that seems to make playing at higher levels inaccessible for players in their first 5 years.

I recommend that that the eldritch bonuses cap at 2 or 3 items. The benefit to having more than that is slot efficiency. The Ring is a terrible slot to use for an eldritch item so people with 4 items could choose just not to use the ring - use the kilt, the boots, and the rod (1 non-competitive slot - legs, 1 BIS slot feet, and 1 un-slotted). Setting the maximum cap at 3 makes it somewhat attainable to hit 3 for someone who started in the past year or two by getting the kilt and teeth then only buying 1 secondary market item (as opposed to three).

The new system incentivizes someone to get to 2 eldritch items and stop because it will cost another $5K plus to get near the others knowing they will be significantly less powerful than their peers. It's a core philosophy design issue that should be considered.

LoDS - I agree the item was overpowered, especially with the 10 point eldritch pool. I agree with nerfing it. With that said, the combat design for the rooms has morphed since those items were originally introduced to push for nightmare runs to have both a cleric and druid both set up as substantial healers to keep the party up (especially with MEC, etc). Creatures do more damage, hit more often, etc assuming that healing would be there for Nightmare+ levels (remember Into the shadowlands where 30 pts of splash damage was being tossed out commonly to multiple players each time?)

Will there be adjustments to the damage parties take with the healing reduced by 50+%? If there is, the druid changes look great because it would mean a druid is just a supplemental healer if needed but gets to shine in combat roles (especially while polymorphed). Alternately, is the design philosophy more for the players to self heal via potions, scrolls, etc? The change seems to impact druid more than any other class but goes to core party design in the future.

Input there would be appreciated!

Overall, we appreciate the design work being done - a lot of thought and effort is clear. Thank you for listening to us and our input!

Fred


Fred, I agree completely regarding Eldritch. I've also proposed capping it at the 3 item level, with no additional healing or damage bonuses for 4 or 5 items. That will help keep the totals under control. The healing reduction is offset by the bonus damage that Jeff added in. Keeping it as currently designed actually makes the power imbalance worse, because the 5 item level has all the healing that it had before the change, and a lot of bonus damage added in on top of that.

It doesn't seem that people with 4 (and soon 5) Eldritch tokens have too much ground to complain, since there were never any extra bonuses guaranteed for those levels.

It would help with "slot lock" also. With the bonuses as now defined, someone would have Boots/Kilt/Ring slot locked down for the five item bonus. With it capped at three, there is more flexibility to have one or two of those slots filled with something else and still get the max Eldritch Bonus.


I disagree on this. I think there should always be some sort of incremental bonus for more Eldritch items. But maybe stop at 5 and then start a new track like was mentioned in other threads. Maybe an Arcane path. Or something. Or stop at 4 and then make the Tooth the first of a new series. Kind of like the Rod, which is Grand Eldritch.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #91

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Wade Schwendemann wrote:
If we were going to do that, I would submit that the Kilt and teeth should start a new set, rather than add to elemental eldritch.



IMO this is a good idea.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #92

I agree that just picking one slot (neck) and reserving it for class specific legendaries is a cleaner solution, even if it is painful in the short term for those of us who have invested in UR neck tokens. I think there are enough slots as-is with the recent addition of shin and bead.

For the WoW players out there.. think of the neck slot as the Heart of Azeroth

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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #93

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fred K wrote: I wanted to present a couple thoughts on the changes on eldritch items and on the LoDS.
Eldritch bonuses - as a newer player (4-5 years), the ability to get eldritch items without spending thousands in the secondary market is limited. I understand keeping the vets engaged but it would be good for the game if there wasn't always a gulf between the 10 year vets and the newer players. The design where having 4 or 5 eldritch items to get to the max bonus always promotes that gulf in a way that seems to make playing at higher levels inaccessible for players in their first 5 years.

I recommend that that the eldritch bonuses cap at 2 or 3 items. The benefit to having more than that is slot efficiency. The Ring is a terrible slot to use for an eldritch item so people with 4 items could choose just not to use the ring - use the kilt, the boots, and the rod (1 non-competitive slot - legs, 1 BIS slot feet, and 1 un-slotted). Setting the maximum cap at 3 makes it somewhat attainable to hit 3 for someone who started in the past year or two by getting the kilt and teeth then only buying 1 secondary market item (as opposed to three).

The new system incentivizes someone to get to 2 eldritch items and stop because it will cost another $5K plus to get near the others knowing they will be significantly less powerful than their peers. It's a core philosophy design issue that should be considered.

LoDS - I agree the item was overpowered, especially with the 10 point eldritch pool. I agree with nerfing it. With that said, the combat design for the rooms has morphed since those items were originally introduced to push for nightmare runs to have both a cleric and druid both set up as substantial healers to keep the party up (especially with MEC, etc). Creatures do more damage, hit more often, etc assuming that healing would be there for Nightmare+ levels (remember Into the shadowlands where 30 pts of splash damage was being tossed out commonly to multiple players each time?)

Will there be adjustments to the damage parties take with the healing reduced by 50+%? If there is, the druid changes look great because it would mean a druid is just a supplemental healer if needed but gets to shine in combat roles (especially while polymorphed). Alternately, is the design philosophy more for the players to self heal via potions, scrolls, etc? The change seems to impact druid more than any other class but goes to core party design in the future.

Input there would be appreciated!

Overall, we appreciate the design work being done - a lot of thought and effort is clear. Thank you for listening to us and our input!

Fred


Fred, I agree completely regarding Eldritch. I've also proposed capping it at the 3 item level, with no additional healing or damage bonuses for 4 or 5 items. That will help keep the totals under control. The healing reduction is offset by the bonus damage that Jeff added in. Keeping it as currently designed actually makes the power imbalance worse, because the 5 item level has all the healing that it had before the change, and a lot of bonus damage added in on top of that.

It doesn't seem that people with 4 (and soon 5) Eldritch tokens have too much ground to complain, since there were never any extra bonuses guaranteed for those levels.

It would help with "slot lock" also. With the bonuses as now defined, someone would have Boots/Kilt/Ring slot locked down for the five item bonus. With it capped at three, there is more flexibility to have one or two of those slots filled with something else and still get the max Eldritch Bonus.


Jeff did explicitly say there would be a 4 set bonus. A 5 was never promised.


True, but he also said that what the 4 set bonus would be would be a small something for the Druid & Ranger. I'm fine if he still just adds a small something for the Druid & Ranger at 4 items. :)

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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #94

I believe it was "a little something extra" for druids and rangers.

Which could mean only druids and rangers get anything, or could mean everyone gets something and Druids and Rangers get a little bit more.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #95

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I believe it was "a little something extra" for druids and rangers.

Which could mean only druids and rangers get anything, or could mean everyone gets something and Druids and Rangers get a little bit more.


You're correct, it could be interpreted either way. Even if it was interpreted that there would be something for everyone, that's clearly subject to change now. If people with two items dropped from +10 healing to +4 healing, people with 4 or (soon) 5 items might lose any potential additional bonus.

It actually seems pretty appropriate to me that if the bonuses are being depowered, it should be depowered at the top and bottom end. It doesn't seem quite fair that the bottom end get a 60% decrease in healing, and the top end actually get more powerful (+10 healing plus bonus damage). And I am saying that as someone that can get multiple party members to 4 items once the Teeth are released.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Notes about Tokens for 2019 3 years 4 months ago #96

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I believe it was "a little something extra" for druids and rangers.

Which could mean only druids and rangers get anything, or could mean everyone gets something and Druids and Rangers get a little bit more.


You're correct, it could be interpreted either way. Even if it was interpreted that there would be something for everyone, that's clearly subject to change now. If people with two items dropped from +10 healing to +4 healing, people with 4 or (soon) 5 items might lose any potential additional bonus.

It actually seems pretty appropriate to me that if the bonuses are being depowered, it should be depowered at the top and bottom end. It doesn't seem quite fair that the bottom end get a 60% decrease in healing, and the top end actually get more powerful (+10 healing plus bonus damage). And I am saying that as someone that can get multiple party members to 4 items once the Teeth are released.


That is a fair point. I would be in favor of starting a new set with the kilt, the teeth, and whatever multi-year, multiple UR item we start in 2020. Then leave eldritch with +1 level, +4 heal and +1 damage at 2 items, and +1 level, +6 heal, +2 damage at all 3 items.
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