TOPIC: Notes about Tokens for 2019

edwin wrote: Just trying to understand the use of a MMM.

The token database:
tokendb.com/token/medallion-of-mystic-mouth/

Per the description:
I can start with Thor's Hammer, throw it, it returns.
I can then use MMM to use a wand.
I end the round with Thor's Hammer in my hand.

I did not see any restriction on what has to be in your hand in order to use MMM in the same round.

Correct. It works the same way if you cast a spell with a Staff of Focus; you end with the Staff in your hand.

In the first post Jeff wrote:
If you have a Medallion of Mystic Mouth you will have to place TWO Wands on the combat board so that you can use each one -- each round. At the end of the combat, both Wand tokens are consumed.

Yes, he did. That was the misspoken part. It’s true, but not complete. He was talking about if you wanted to wand-wand every round. The first scenario you stated, hammer-wand, is still valid, and only consumes one wand. I remember him confirming that somewhere, but sometimes I remember things that didn’t happen.

edwin wrote: Just trying to understand the use of a MMM.

The token database:
tokendb.com/token/medallion-of-mystic-mouth/

Per the description:
I can start with Thor's Hammer, throw it, it returns.
I can then use MMM to use a wand.
I end the round with Thor's Hammer in my hand.

I did not see any restriction on what has to be in your hand in order to use MMM in the same round.

In the first post Jeff wrote:
If you have a Medallion of Mystic Mouth you will have to place TWO Wands on the combat board so that you can use each one -- each round. At the end of the combat, both Wand tokens are consumed.

Essentially, the change requires one to always carry a wand in the hand if you plan on using MMM.

The miscommunication here is a result from questions in the alpha post in lords&ladies section. I thought unlimited use meant you could use ONE wand, fire it, then MMM the same wand, and have nothing in your hands change. Jeff clarified that to fire wand-wand, you do indeed need to fire two different wands. So, his post was to clarify that, but outside that context it confused people.

jedibcg wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: If the rule was 1-2 wands consumed per game instead of per room (depending if you were using MoMM or not), the medallion and ioun Stone would still see play. Instead I will be finding better things to put in these slots because of this change.

This seems odd to me. With MoMM and the IS, you can get a Free +10(12 if you are a Human Wizard) damage as a free action every round for turning in 1 wand in a room. If you only want to turn in 1-2 wands then only do it in last 1-2 combat rooms.

What are you going to wear in your neck that is going to rival +8 ( or 10) and burning 1 rare extra damage each round as a wizard? There might be better options that the IS I will admit.

At the cost of an uncommon wand you still get an extra +5 ( or 7). Potion of Bull's strength (also a uncommon consumable give +2/+2.

Eventually the supply on wands will make it using this method prohibitive. The suggestion was to slow that down. Say you’re a wand wizard: Five combat rooms x two wands x $3-4 = An extra $30-40 a run. I can afford this but I don’t know if that’s common. The change doesn’t reduce the power level of wizards, it just makes them more pay to play, arguably moreso than any other class.

Mix in some distilled potions to MEC (since we’re going to have to use more of them due to the LoDS and Shadowskin nerf) just to keep damage output on par with other classes and consumables (and a lot of extra money) become a necessary part of optimal play for us.

My suggestion was keep the wand change, but turn in 1-2 per game for the same effect, rather than 1-2 per room. Otherwise most Wizards will abandon the Medallion and Ioun Stone just due to the expense of using those optimally.

Josh Wilhelmi wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: If the rule was 1-2 wands consumed per game instead of per room (depending if you were using MoMM or not), the medallion and ioun Stone would still see play. Instead I will be finding better things to put in these slots because of this change.

This seems odd to me. With MoMM and the IS, you can get a Free +10(12 if you are a Human Wizard) damage as a free action every round for turning in 1 wand in a room. If you only want to turn in 1-2 wands then only do it in last 1-2 combat rooms.

What are you going to wear in your neck that is going to rival +8 ( or 10) and burning 1 rare extra damage each round as a wizard? There might be better options that the IS I will admit.

At the cost of an uncommon wand you still get an extra +5 ( or 7). Potion of Bull's strength (also a uncommon consumable give +2/+2.

Eventually the supply on wands will make it using this method prohibitive. The suggestion was to slow that down. Say you’re a wand wizard: Five combat rooms x two wands x $3-4 = An extra $30-40 a run. I can afford this but I don’t know if that’s common. The change doesn’t reduce the power level of wizards, it just makes them more pay to play, arguably moreso than any other class.

Mix in some distilled potions to MEC (since we’re going to have to use more of them due to the LoDS and Shadowskin nerf) just to keep damage output on par with other classes and consumables (and a lot of extra money) become a necessary part of optimal play for us.

My suggestion was keep the wand change, but turn in 1-2 per game for the same effect, rather than 1-2 per room. Otherwise most Wizards will abandon the Medallion and Ioun Stone just due to the expense of using those optimally.

Even the damage from uncommon wands is nice since it's all bonus damage. Those should be pretty inexpensive.

Mike Steele wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: If the rule was 1-2 wands consumed per game instead of per room (depending if you were using MoMM or not), the medallion and ioun Stone would still see play. Instead I will be finding better things to put in these slots because of this change.

This seems odd to me. With MoMM and the IS, you can get a Free +10(12 if you are a Human Wizard) damage as a free action every round for turning in 1 wand in a room. If you only want to turn in 1-2 wands then only do it in last 1-2 combat rooms.

What are you going to wear in your neck that is going to rival +8 ( or 10) and burning 1 rare extra damage each round as a wizard? There might be better options that the IS I will admit.

At the cost of an uncommon wand you still get an extra +5 ( or 7). Potion of Bull's strength (also a uncommon consumable give +2/+2.

Eventually the supply on wands will make it using this method prohibitive. The suggestion was to slow that down. Say you’re a wand wizard: Five combat rooms x two wands x $3-4 = An extra $30-40 a run. I can afford this but I don’t know if that’s common. The change doesn’t reduce the power level of wizards, it just makes them more pay to play, arguably moreso than any other class.

Mix in some distilled potions to MEC (since we’re going to have to use more of them due to the LoDS and Shadowskin nerf) just to keep damage output on par with other classes and consumables (and a lot of extra money) become a necessary part of optimal play for us.

My suggestion was keep the wand change, but turn in 1-2 per game for the same effect, rather than 1-2 per room. Otherwise most Wizards will abandon the Medallion and Ioun Stone just due to the expense of using those optimally.

Even the damage from uncommon wands is nice since it's all bonus damage. Those should be pretty inexpensive.

How often do players use suboptimal weapons when sliding? There’s a reason we don’t typically rock Commons when we’ve got Legendaries in our binders, right?

Basically our choice after exhausting spells is melee, which we’re not built for, or using more consumables than other classes in order to maintain a modicum of parity of effectiveness. Combined with the LoDS nerf, it’s even worse.

I’ll buy a plethora of wands and just end up paying more to be as effective as similarly equipped melee classes. This just makes token sellers more money and does nothing to change the power level of the class. It’s just a lot more expensive, if that was the intent.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

edwin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Grekel! wrote: I've been thinking about the wand situation. And I rarely use wands these days... I hate seeing them get consumed in one shot... but then again it is not really one single shot... it's kind of like a repeating scroll...

that said...

I wonder (yeah Ima get pounded for being greedy, but that's ok)

Would it be possible to get a "wand as free action" UR or Legendary...? I'd be ok if it was a little bit blood magic like the MEC.... That way you could tag on the wand effect as a bit of "flavour" to spice up your standard spell casting....

Just a thought...

But overall - I get the reasoning behind the changes... and it does make sense.

Your token wish has been granted?

tokendb.com/token/medallion-of-mystic-mouth/

Same token, same wand or any item of the same type?
"...The item swapped out must be the same item that’s swapped back in..."

I’m not sure what is being asked.

I thought the OP wanted a way to fire a wand as a free action.

Mmm gives you that.

I think it literally means what it says. You get the exact same item.

I think the original concept was to cast a spell with your Staff, MMM a wand, and have your staff back ready for the next round.

Back at the dawn of time, or at least two years ago, it made a difference. You could use your SA to use the last charge of a wand, MMM and use a fresh wand, but then you have to swap back in a useless stick.

I agree that’s how it works.

Whatever was in your hands before you used the mmm is still in the hands.

I don’t understand what we are talking about here I guess.

I’m not sure what the op was driving at.

We do have a ur that gives wand use as a free action. What would they like that is different?

You use up your free action to get a shot off with a wand that is not in your hand at the end of your actions.

You don't have a free action to change what started off or ended up in your hand. You don't have a free action to use from another token that round.

Then why are we even talking about changing how MMM works?

Requiring one to alway have a wand in hand before using the free action with MMM with a wand is not a good thing at all. Unless you carry a wand in hand normally the MMM is trash under the new ruling.

The new lets someone carry one item, turn in two wands to the table and fire both wands in the same round. In effect giving two free actions.

No, that’s not how it works. That’s what Jeff said at one point, but he misspoke and I believe he corrected himself.

Before and after the change, MMM let you:

1. Start with either a Staff or Wand
2. Use standard action to cast a spell (if you had staff) or use your wand
3. Use your free action to swap to a different wand, use it, then swap it back to what you had in step 1.

That didn’t change. What did change is that any wand you used gets trashed at the end of the room. That effectively puts things back to where the were from the beginning of TD through 2016, plus or minus a charge. 2017 was the anomaly.

My suggestion would be to make the first part of step 3 optional i.e. just use the same wand twice in the round.

Technically step 2 could be something like a Melee attack as well.

OK - since there have been a couple of posts here about what I was driving at in the original post... and now that I’ve re-read everything....

Everyone keeps saying “you cast a spell with your staff - then use MoMM to swap to wand...”. That’s all well and good.

I was saying - I want to cast a spell - straight up, with full modifiers... and have a wand shot added in as a free action. The way I read MoMM - it only let’s you double a wand up on top of a spell cast as a scroll (from the staff) without modifiers....

With the new rule on wands - I’d not likely have I terst in swapping a wand - unless I was pulling out an old one like wand of slow....

If the wand is going away at end of room - regardless of if I use it for one round of combat or every round... I just want to tack that on to whatever regular spellcasti g I’m doing as a free action...

Josh Wilhelmi wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: If the rule was 1-2 wands consumed per game instead of per room (depending if you were using MoMM or not), the medallion and ioun Stone would still see play. Instead I will be finding better things to put in these slots because of this change.

This seems odd to me. With MoMM and the IS, you can get a Free +10(12 if you are a Human Wizard) damage as a free action every round for turning in 1 wand in a room. If you only want to turn in 1-2 wands then only do it in last 1-2 combat rooms.

What are you going to wear in your neck that is going to rival +8 ( or 10) and burning 1 rare extra damage each round as a wizard? There might be better options that the IS I will admit.

At the cost of an uncommon wand you still get an extra +5 ( or 7). Potion of Bull's strength (also a uncommon consumable give +2/+2.

Eventually the supply on wands will make it using this method prohibitive. The suggestion was to slow that down. Say you’re a wand wizard: Five combat rooms x two wands x $3-4 = An extra $30-40 a run. I can afford this but I don’t know if that’s common. The change doesn’t reduce the power level of wizards, it just makes them more pay to play, arguably moreso than any other class.

Mix in some distilled potions to MEC (since we’re going to have to use more of them due to the LoDS and Shadowskin nerf) just to keep damage output on par with other classes and consumables (and a lot of extra money) become a necessary part of optimal play for us.

My suggestion was keep the wand change, but turn in 1-2 per game for the same effect, rather than 1-2 per room. Otherwise most Wizards will abandon the Medallion and Ioun Stone just due to the expense of using those optimally.

Even the damage from uncommon wands is nice since it's all bonus damage. Those should be pretty inexpensive.

How often do players use suboptimal weapons when sliding? There’s a reason we don’t typically rock Commons when we’ve got Legendaries in our binders, right?

Basically our choice after exhausting spells is melee, which we’re not built for, or using more consumables than other classes in order to maintain a modicum of parity of effectiveness. Combined with the LoDS nerf, it’s even worse.

Players use uncommon (and common) ammo fairly often. I know i did for multiple uears as i played a ranged ranger; i had a big bag of ammo, full of any ammo that added damage, every shot i just grabbed one out of the bag. Lots of uncommons, they still added damage, i was happy.

And less than 1 year ago i picked up both MoMM and flourite cube. Enjoyed firing off wands as free action any time i played wizard (and sometimes as druid). Even with the wand rule change, i will continue to use wands as a free action any chance i get. Sure, my initial reaction was to be upset that my permanent wands were now consumable, but now they are comparable to ranged classes using the quiver with an oil, but the wand does about x3 the damage. Even adding the ammo (which is lots more consumable use for ranged), the wand still does more than double...and always hits.

As a main action, there are tons of better things to do than wands, but as a free action with MoMM, wands may be the absolute best thing you can do!

Josh Wilhelmi wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: If the rule was 1-2 wands consumed per game instead of per room (depending if you were using MoMM or not), the medallion and ioun Stone would still see play. Instead I will be finding better things to put in these slots because of this change.

This seems odd to me. With MoMM and the IS, you can get a Free +10(12 if you are a Human Wizard) damage as a free action every round for turning in 1 wand in a room. If you only want to turn in 1-2 wands then only do it in last 1-2 combat rooms.

What are you going to wear in your neck that is going to rival +8 ( or 10) and burning 1 rare extra damage each round as a wizard? There might be better options that the IS I will admit.

At the cost of an uncommon wand you still get an extra +5 ( or 7). Potion of Bull's strength (also a uncommon consumable give +2/+2.

Eventually the supply on wands will make it using this method prohibitive. The suggestion was to slow that down. Say you’re a wand wizard: Five combat rooms x two wands x $3-4 = An extra $30-40 a run. I can afford this but I don’t know if that’s common. The change doesn’t reduce the power level of wizards, it just makes them more pay to play, arguably moreso than any other class.

Mix in some distilled potions to MEC (since we’re going to have to use more of them due to the LoDS and Shadowskin nerf) just to keep damage output on par with other classes and consumables (and a lot of extra money) become a necessary part of optimal play for us.

My suggestion was keep the wand change, but turn in 1-2 per game for the same effect, rather than 1-2 per room. Otherwise most Wizards will abandon the Medallion and Ioun Stone just due to the expense of using those optimally.

Even the damage from uncommon wands is nice since it's all bonus damage. Those should be pretty inexpensive.

How often do players use suboptimal weapons when sliding? There’s a reason we don’t typically rock Commons when we’ve got Legendaries in our binders, right?

Basically our choice after exhausting spells is melee, which we’re not built for, or using more consumables than other classes in order to maintain a modicum of parity of effectiveness. Combined with the LoDS nerf, it’s even worse.

I use common str/dex potions via pouch of tulz before combat 1&2 most dungeons. I only break out the top shelf potions for the boss.

Brad Mortensen wrote: What has me slightly bummed about the new rule is that the least pointless wand I carry around with me is Illumination. It has 5 charges, I only never used it like once per room... liche Smoak, I believe. But it’s not like it has been worth using since then, and I don’t imagine there are a lot of them around.

That said, I would like to suggest an errata to MMM so the caster isn’t required to swap stuff. That would allow wizards to use the same wand twice in a round. That way they only have to turn in one vs two if they run out of spells.

Maybe the wand change could be specified to effect damage wands only.

Grekel! wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

edwin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Grekel! wrote: I've been thinking about the wand situation. And I rarely use wands these days... I hate seeing them get consumed in one shot... but then again it is not really one single shot... it's kind of like a repeating scroll...

that said...

I wonder (yeah Ima get pounded for being greedy, but that's ok)

Would it be possible to get a "wand as free action" UR or Legendary...? I'd be ok if it was a little bit blood magic like the MEC.... That way you could tag on the wand effect as a bit of "flavour" to spice up your standard spell casting....

Just a thought...

But overall - I get the reasoning behind the changes... and it does make sense.

Your token wish has been granted?

tokendb.com/token/medallion-of-mystic-mouth/

Same token, same wand or any item of the same type?
"...The item swapped out must be the same item that’s swapped back in..."

I’m not sure what is being asked.

I thought the OP wanted a way to fire a wand as a free action.

Mmm gives you that.

I think it literally means what it says. You get the exact same item.

I think the original concept was to cast a spell with your Staff, MMM a wand, and have your staff back ready for the next round.

Back at the dawn of time, or at least two years ago, it made a difference. You could use your SA to use the last charge of a wand, MMM and use a fresh wand, but then you have to swap back in a useless stick.

I agree that’s how it works.

Whatever was in your hands before you used the mmm is still in the hands.

I don’t understand what we are talking about here I guess.

I’m not sure what the op was driving at.

We do have a ur that gives wand use as a free action. What would they like that is different?

You use up your free action to get a shot off with a wand that is not in your hand at the end of your actions.

You don't have a free action to change what started off or ended up in your hand. You don't have a free action to use from another token that round.

Then why are we even talking about changing how MMM works?

Requiring one to alway have a wand in hand before using the free action with MMM with a wand is not a good thing at all. Unless you carry a wand in hand normally the MMM is trash under the new ruling.

The new lets someone carry one item, turn in two wands to the table and fire both wands in the same round. In effect giving two free actions.

No, that’s not how it works. That’s what Jeff said at one point, but he misspoke and I believe he corrected himself.

Before and after the change, MMM let you:

1. Start with either a Staff or Wand
2. Use standard action to cast a spell (if you had staff) or use your wand
3. Use your free action to swap to a different wand, use it, then swap it back to what you had in step 1.

That didn’t change. What did change is that any wand you used gets trashed at the end of the room. That effectively puts things back to where the were from the beginning of TD through 2016, plus or minus a charge. 2017 was the anomaly.

My suggestion would be to make the first part of step 3 optional i.e. just use the same wand twice in the round.

Technically step 2 could be something like a Melee attack as well.

OK - since there have been a couple of posts here about what I was driving at in the original post... and now that I’ve re-read everything....

Everyone keeps saying “you cast a spell with your staff - then use MoMM to swap to wand...”. That’s all well and good.

I was saying - I want to cast a spell - straight up, with full modifiers... and have a wand shot added in as a free action. The way I read MoMM - it only let’s you double a wand up on top of a spell cast as a scroll (from the staff) without modifiers....

With the new rule on wands - I’d not likely have I terst in swapping a wand - unless I was pulling out an old one like wand of slow....

If the wand is going away at end of room - regardless of if I use it for one round of combat or every round... I just want to tack that on to whatever regular spellcasti g I’m doing as a free action...

That is exactly what the MoMM does. It does not place any restriction on ypur standard action, in any way. Before and after the rules change, you do whatever you want with ypur main action; including casting a spell with full modifiers. Then you activate MoMM as free action, fire a wand, and return to the hand-held items you had before the wand.

The ONLY drawback is that if you use MoMM every round, you will not be able to change what is in your hands for your standard action. I have actually thought up some amusing work-arounds for this limitation...at origins and gencon i was often using the dagger of arcane luck to help bump teammates and then using wands with free actions...but then if i wanted to cast a spell, i would have to stop using wands for a round to switch weapons...UNLESS i declare my dagger attack as thrown. Now i am left with empty hands and i can cast next round without using my free action to swap.

Just getting caught up from being offline,

As a coach/DM I understand why Shadowskin and Divine sight had to get the nerf bat, my question is how prevalent is Shadowskin outside of grind? I saw it as great option for the UR crowd who don't have/not making the jump to the relic/legendary cloaks? Would an errata to say this can't be used with charm of brooching help here?

As a player i'm not happy with the change to Shadowskin, i was able to pyp it right before it went out of print so i'm not out some overpriced sum on the secondary market but this still stings quite a bit. The +2 saves feels bad, especially when it wasn't that long ago we had the +2 resistance cloak at rare...

Lenses of diving sight, i don't play castor and i don't like the change as a player who's invested into them. On the other hand as a player who plays with different healers the gap between even a moderately geared healer vs the expected combo of LoDS/eldritch bonus is absurd.

With the change to eldritch bonuses would it be wise to wait a year and see/base on feed back and gives players a warning year that the powers that be are watching to see if changes help or else ban hammer incoming?

Not digging slot lock on class speck/legendary but no matter what slot was picked there'll be arguments that it can't go into slot X because of token Y being a class staple.