TOPIC: 2019 Reprinted Token Suggestions

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Is there a reason you're against a reprint of the Charm of Enlightenment? It's clearly a very high demand, high priced item, which is normally a key criteria for reprinting. Plus, it is required to enable the Lenses of Divine Sight, so it serves a dual purpose by reprinting. I don't really understand the pushback on reprinting this particular token.

Let me try to enlighten you. If the motivation to reprint the charm is for the +4 saves then a function reprint is fine. INT/WIS/CHA boosting tokens should not be reprinted until we understand the game direction those stats will take. Reprinting the Charm because the LoDS is reliant on the charm is a poor argument due to the fact there are significantly more charms in the market place then LoDS. Anyone trading/buying an LoDS will certainly be able to find a Charm of Enlightenment.

Ed

Ed, thanks for the attempt to enlighten, but I completely disagree. The Charm of Enlightenment is in high demand, I think it's one of the absolute best reprint candidates for the Rare slot because it serves multiple purposes. No problem if you disagree, Jeff makes the final call.

The “multiple purposes” argument seems moot. I would be stunned if there is anyone out there with LoDSes who doesn’t already own at least one CoE to go with each. There is currently no other reason to have more WIS. If another reason comes along, I’ve no doubt more WIS-raising tokens will, too.

The premise that we should reprint every token whose value exceeds a certain threshold is not universally agreed upon.

I agree with Ed on this one (unless of course the lenses get reprinted this year). Until we know what is happening with Int/wis we should probably avoid reprinting items that could complicate those stats. Especially if there is an option like +4 wil that avoids the situation entirely. If nothing happens with int/wis then I think it's safe to reprint the CoE.

Picc wrote: I agree with Ed on this one (unless of course the lenses get reprinted this year). Until we know what is happening with Int/wis we should probably avoid reprinting items that could complicate those stats. Especially if there is an option like +4 wil that avoids the situation entirely. If nothing happens with int/wis then I think it's safe to reprint the CoE.

Out of curiosity, can you link to the threads that indicate that something major is going to happen with Int/Wis? And even if there is, I think that's more of an argument against new tokens along those lines than reprinting old ones. Since there are a number of these already out there, reprinting would just level the playing field between older and newer players by giving all access to it. Otherwise it would be locking in an advantage for the more established players.

I agree with both Ed and Picc. I'd also argue that Lenses of Divine Sight are much harder to find than the Charm of Enlightenment. Unless there is a reprint of the Lenses of Divine Sight, I don't see much demand for Charm of Enlightenment. My guess is that it would tank the price and it would stay that way indefinitely until such time as the Lenses of Divine Sight is reprinted or WIS starts doing something more useful in the game. At that point the Charm of Enlightenment may need to be nerfed and/or the value would shoot to even higher than it is today.

I'm just saying it seems like a lot of future risk for little current benefits.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I agree with both Ed and Picc. I'd also argue that Lenses of Divine Sight are much harder to find than the Charm of Enlightenment. Unless there is a reprint of the Lenses of Divine Sight, I don't see much demand for Charm of Enlightenment. My guess is that it would tank the price and it would stay that way indefinitely until such time as the Lenses of Divine Sight is reprinted or WIS starts doing something more useful in the game. At that point the Charm of Enlightenment may need to be nerfed and/or the value would shoot to even higher than it is today.

I'm just saying it seems like a lot of future risk for little current benefits.

Again - can you link to the discussions indicating something is going to change regarding how WIS/INT are used? I'd be interested in seeing what is proposed. I recall requests in the past requesting something like that, but nothing concrete enough from TPTB to impact what tokens should be reprinted (but I might just have missed those threads).

Mike Steele wrote: Again - can you link to the discussions indicating something is going to change regarding how WIS/INT are used? I'd be interested in seeing what is proposed. I recall requests in the past requesting something like that, but nothing concrete enough from TPTB to impact what tokens should be reprinted (but I might just have missed those threads).

I can't link to anything definitive, yet it seems intuitive to me that eventually we'll find better uses for INT and WIS as the game progresses. When these discussions happen somebody usually brings up the Charm of Enlightenment as a reason why we can't use WIS for anything because it would become overpowered. I think there are options around that, e.g. nerfing it and/or printing a replacement, just accepting that these older tokens will be OP, etc. But if you do a whole new run of them, using 2019 token sales volumes rather than 2014 token sales volumes, it makes the possible solutions much more difficult.

Picc wrote: I agree with Ed on this one (unless of course the lenses get reprinted this year). Until we know what is happening with Int/wis we should probably avoid reprinting items that could complicate those stats. Especially if there is an option like +4 wil that avoids the situation entirely. If nothing happens with int/wis then I think it's safe to reprint the CoE.

This would seem to imply we -never- reprint int or wis boosters until there is a mechanical change to int or wis.

So... if there is never a mechanical change to those stats we can never reprint charm of enlightenment or hat of intellect?

To take a few neat tokens permanently off the reprint list until we see a might-never-happen rule mechanic change seems odd to me.

Has it been announced that the next character class redesign will change int and wis and we know the day is coming?

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Again - can you link to the discussions indicating something is going to change regarding how WIS/INT are used? I'd be interested in seeing what is proposed. I recall requests in the past requesting something like that, but nothing concrete enough from TPTB to impact what tokens should be reprinted (but I might just have missed those threads).

I can't link to anything definitive, yet it seems intuitive to me that eventually we'll find better uses for INT and WIS as the game progresses. When these discussions happen somebody usually brings up the Charm of Enlightenment as a reason why we can't use WIS for anything because it would become overpowered. I think there are options around that, e.g. nerfing it and/or printing a replacement, just accepting that these older tokens will be OP, etc. But if you do a whole new run of them, using 2019 token sales volumes rather than 2014 token sales volumes, it makes the possible solutions much more difficult.

I tend to disagree, as the amount out there now is significant enough that it would impact any change, and if it weren't reprinted it would just disadvantage newer players if there is a change. I think any solution for the existing population would also work for the increased population. Plus, it's always possible that Jeff has no intention of giving additional benefits for INT and/or WIS, since I think he's given no indication so far that he's interested in doing so. So, I'll let Jeff weigh the pros and cons of reprinting it (as he does with every suggestion).

I would not like to see the Charm of Enlightment reprinted, but would be fine with a different token that raised Wisdom to allow the use of LoDS.

I am not a big fan of reprinting Legendary ingredients except when needed (UR's).

By that same Logic I would not be a fan of the Ring of Fortitude, Ring of Iron Will, and Ring of Reflexes being reprinted. I would be fine with a ring that does the same things with a different name.

I know likely Ring of Protection +1 will likely get reprinted but doesn't mean I have to like it.

If we are thinking we are planning to do something with Wisdom, a token that gives +8 to that stat at the rare level is completely OP.

Since we haven't decided that is going to happen, the discussion seems to be centering around "let's assume it is going to happen and not reprint it" vs "it hasn't happened yet, so let's reprint it and deal with the problem if it happens"

I would have to be squarely in camp 1 above. This is a predictable problem of using WIS for more than just will saves. Even if it isn't going to be for 2 or more years, I would submit we should limit it until we know that we are never going to. If that decision is made (and I hope it isn't), then reprint the charm.

I could be convinced to add a +4 fort or reflex save charm, as the red level charms are lacking, imo.

A +4 will save charm would be fine, with a possibility of CoE later.

I also don't think any completion token should be reprinted as part of a token cycle. I don't think any of them have in the past, and I would like that to continue. They are generally not BiS already (slotless excepted of course).

To sidestep the 'WIS might be special someday' disagreement, there is another reason to not reprint the charm of enlightenment.

Lenses of divine sight is considered a staple for high-end builds, it WILL get reprinted. There will need to be a WIS enhancer printed in the same set. So, if the lenses arent getting reprinted this year, there shouldnt be a WIS enhancer (unless WIS is given another reason to exist).

A +4 will charm could be printed, but doing so highly increases the chance of a WIS enhancer in a different slot when the lenses are reprinted, to avoid excessive repetition.

I would hope the LoDS do not get reprinted YET. They were still available in 2015 so will only be 4 years OOP in 2019.