TOPIC: 2019 Volunteer & Other Special Token Suggestions

Picc wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Picc wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: How about (sticking with the.voucher idea) 3 vouchers could be turned in for a $250 pack when the next years tokens ship. 4 vouchers could be used for a $500 pack when the new tokens ship.

I like the idea, however I'm not sure it would be feasible as it would represent a greater cost to TD. Remember it costs them the same amount to print a Common as an UR and then there's postage to consider on all the extra weight.

Sorry but that’s wrong thinking. In HR it’s proven by many studies that replacing an employee costs 2.5 times the annual salary of the employee.
Why is this relevant?
TD wants and needs qualified and experienced volunteers so the cost of shipping is negligible compared to having a qualified and experienced worker.

I'm sorry, I fail to see why TD would be at risk of loosing volunteers? Sure if they used to give out $250 value packs then stopped I could see people being annoyed but were talking about future possibilities. All I'm pointing out is that giving out an UR represents a small fix cost, giving out a value pack represents a larger cost. If Td wants/ can afford to give us a raise cool, but to be honest it's not going to affect my desire to come back one way or the other and I'd rather they kept their costs down so it doesn't get reflected in the tickets.

I didn’t say anything about loosing volunteers. I'm talking about attracting more 3 and 4 con volunteers. I volunteered at all 4 cons last year and I’m not sure how many others did that. I’m all about getting more volunteers

Bob Chasan wrote:

Picc wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Picc wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: How about (sticking with the.voucher idea) 3 vouchers could be turned in for a $250 pack when the next years tokens ship. 4 vouchers could be used for a $500 pack when the new tokens ship.

I like the idea, however I'm not sure it would be feasible as it would represent a greater cost to TD. Remember it costs them the same amount to print a Common as an UR and then there's postage to consider on all the extra weight.

Sorry but that’s wrong thinking. In HR it’s proven by many studies that replacing an employee costs 2.5 times the annual salary of the employee.
Why is this relevant?
TD wants and needs qualified and experienced volunteers so the cost of shipping is negligible compared to having a qualified and experienced worker.

I'm sorry, I fail to see why TD would be at risk of loosing volunteers? Sure if they used to give out $250 value packs then stopped I could see people being annoyed but were talking about future possibilities. All I'm pointing out is that giving out an UR represents a small fix cost, giving out a value pack represents a larger cost. If Td wants/ can afford to give us a raise cool, but to be honest it's not going to affect my desire to come back one way or the other and I'd rather they kept their costs down so it doesn't get reflected in the tickets.

I didn’t say anything about loosing volunteers. I'm talking about attracting more 3 and 4 con volunteers. I volunteered at all 4 cons last year and I’m not sure how many others did that. I’m all about getting more volunteers

I think the getting more volunteers is a necessary thing, and Bob is absolutely right about the need to retain the good ones (also help improve or weed out the less good ones). I'm less sure the goal should be more volunteers that volunteer at 3 or 4 cons in a year. There are some definite benefits (more experience for coaches/DMs will certainly make them better faster). But you might also wind up with volunteers that burn out faster. It might be better to spread a wider net instead and focus of finding, growing, and maintaining a set of volunteers at each con.


I do greatly appreciate the volunteers that help at more than one convention, and it would be awesome if TD had a nice way to thank you for that.

Fiddy wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Picc wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Picc wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: How about (sticking with the.voucher idea) 3 vouchers could be turned in for a $250 pack when the next years tokens ship. 4 vouchers could be used for a $500 pack when the new tokens ship.

I like the idea, however I'm not sure it would be feasible as it would represent a greater cost to TD. Remember it costs them the same amount to print a Common as an UR and then there's postage to consider on all the extra weight.

Sorry but that’s wrong thinking. In HR it’s proven by many studies that replacing an employee costs 2.5 times the annual salary of the employee.
Why is this relevant?
TD wants and needs qualified and experienced volunteers so the cost of shipping is negligible compared to having a qualified and experienced worker.

I'm sorry, I fail to see why TD would be at risk of loosing volunteers? Sure if they used to give out $250 value packs then stopped I could see people being annoyed but were talking about future possibilities. All I'm pointing out is that giving out an UR represents a small fix cost, giving out a value pack represents a larger cost. If Td wants/ can afford to give us a raise cool, but to be honest it's not going to affect my desire to come back one way or the other and I'd rather they kept their costs down so it doesn't get reflected in the tickets.

I didn’t say anything about loosing volunteers. I'm talking about attracting more 3 and 4 con volunteers. I volunteered at all 4 cons last year and I’m not sure how many others did that. I’m all about getting more volunteers

I think the getting more volunteers is a necessary thing, and Bob is absolutely right about the need to retain the good ones (also help improve or weed out the less good ones). I'm less sure the goal should be more volunteers that volunteer at 3 or 4 cons in a year. There are some definite benefits (more experience for coaches/DMs will certainly make them better faster). But you might also wind up with volunteers that burn out faster. It might be better to spread a wider net instead and focus of finding, growing, and maintaining a set of volunteers at each con.


I do greatly appreciate the volunteers that help at more than one convention, and it would be awesome if TD had a nice way to thank you for that.

Ok, point taken then. Offering more payment to multi con per year vols would definitely get you more of them. And someone who vols at all of them definitely deserves recognition for that given that from what I understand they would only really have time to play at gencon despite traveling all over the country every quarter.

However I also agree with Fiddy, it doesn't seem sustainable now matter what we pay them. IMO the best solution would be to strike a balance that keeps current Vols hanging in there until enough locals can be cultivated for each distinct region.

Picc wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Given that there will be a TE UR available for purchase every year for the foreseeable future (at least through 2026) I don't think there is a need to also have TE as Volunteer tokens. And I do think that it will create a large amount of unhappiness in all the players that want to have max Treasure Pulls and aren't able to get their hands on these. I'm sure Jeff has the numbers, but I have no doubt that the number of Ioun Stone Silver Nuggets purchased dwarfs the amount of Volunteer tokens given out in a year.

What if volunteers were given out print urtes every other year?

Like, 2019 vol could be ioun stone silver nugget, 2021 vol could be whatever the 2019 ioun urte is?

That way vol tokens are sure to have some value, without changing the loot cap.

Wouldn't that negatively impact token sales? I'd think a lot of people would hold off on buying them because they were going to get them for free later. I'd think it would be best to save the TE URs for token sales, and do something different for Volunteer tokens. Just my two cents.

So if you had to pick would you rather not have a vol TE because there wouldn't be enough to supply the market or not give vols UR vouchers because there are to many vols and it would impact sales?

I'm not trying to be difficult (and perfectly willing to retract it if you tell me I'm wrong) but it seems like you might not be arguing one hundred percent in good faith at this point Mike.

Also I cant speak for anyone else but my token spending is more or less fixed every year (and almost always short of what I'd take if I had access to more PYPs)

I think both are very valid points and aren't contradictory in any way. Although I'm not really inclined to discuss it further with you since you're accusing me of arguing in bad faith.

I think I see Mike's point here.

1. There are not so many volunteers that there would be enough volunteer TE to fill the demand for those tokens (some people have to have 10 just in case).

2. There ARE enough volunteers that giving them vouchers for URs might impact token sales.

Point 2 is hard to argue. If we change what people get for free to something that they were buying, they will have less of a need to buy it, there by driving sales down.
That said, many volunteers dont play, so how much things would change is a question.

Point 1 is also probably true. One could argue that such an item would increase volunteering dramatically, or shift the market on volunteer tokens substantially, which may be good or bad. It would also increase the loot cap, and possibly quickly.

Would it be so difficult to allow volunteers a choice of 3 tokens?
The current one
A focus item
A TE that doesnt stack either the CoA, AotF, RoR of CoGF? My thinking with this one is that it might keep down demand, at least to some degree.

I'm genuinely asking, as I haven't volunteered for TD before.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think I see Mike's point here.

1. There are not so many volunteers that there would be enough volunteer TE to fill the demand for those tokens (some people have to have 10 just in case).

2. There ARE enough volunteers that giving them vouchers for URs might impact token sales.

Point 2 is hard to argue. If we change what people get for free to something that they were buying, they will have less of a need to buy it, there by driving sales down.
That said, many volunteers dont play, so how much things would change is a question.

Point 1 is also probably true. One could argue that such an item would increase volunteering dramatically, or shift the market on volunteer tokens substantially, which may be good or bad. It would also increase the loot cap, and possibly quickly.

Would it be so difficult to allow volunteers a choice of 3 tokens?
The current one
A focus item
A TE that doesnt stack either the CoA, AotF, RoR of CoGF? My thinking with this one is that it might keep down demand, at least to some degree.

I'm genuinely asking, as I haven't volunteered for TD before.

I know a number of volunteers have never or don't regularly play TD. They do it for the volunteer perks and sell their volunteer token. Those wouldn't be interested in a non-stacking TE. They would want to sell it and the market would be newer players so no where near $100. Same goes for the focus item. The value to the volunteers (on the token) is it is in demand so either they want it, because they play, or they can sell it for a nice $ to augment the perks of volunteering.

I believe the answer is make the volunteer token somewhere between UR and Relic, and something the player base would want.

By no means did I intentionally ignore the need for keeping good volunteers and replacing weak ones. That still has to be done. TD needs a good feedback system on a number of things (volunteers, rooms, and overall experience).

Ed

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think I see Mike's point here.

1. There are not so many volunteers that there would be enough volunteer TE to fill the demand for those tokens (some people have to have 10 just in case).

2. There ARE enough volunteers that giving them vouchers for URs might impact token sales.

Point 2 is hard to argue. If we change what people get for free to something that they were buying, they will have less of a need to buy it, there by driving sales down.
That said, many volunteers dont play, so how much things would change is a question.

Point 1 is also probably true. One could argue that such an item would increase volunteering dramatically, or shift the market on volunteer tokens substantially, which may be good or bad. It would also increase the loot cap, and possibly quickly.

Would it be so difficult to allow volunteers a choice of 3 tokens?
The current one
A focus item
A TE that doesnt stack either the CoA, AotF, RoR of CoGF? My thinking with this one is that it might keep down demand, at least to some degree.

I'm genuinely asking, as I haven't volunteered for TD before.

Thanks, Wade, that's exactly what I was saying.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think I see Mike's point here.

1. There are not so many volunteers that there would be enough volunteer TE to fill the demand for those tokens (some people have to have 10 just in case).

2. There ARE enough volunteers that giving them vouchers for URs might impact token sales.

Point 2 is hard to argue. If we change what people get for free to something that they were buying, they will have less of a need to buy it, there by driving sales down.
That said, many volunteers dont play, so how much things would change is a question.

Point 1 is also probably true. One could argue that such an item would increase volunteering dramatically, or shift the market on volunteer tokens substantially, which may be good or bad. It would also increase the loot cap, and possibly quickly.

Would it be so difficult to allow volunteers a choice of 3 tokens?
The current one
A focus item
A TE that doesnt stack either the CoA, AotF, RoR of CoGF? My thinking with this one is that it might keep down demand, at least to some degree.

I'm genuinely asking, as I haven't volunteered for TD before.

Couple of things:
I don’t think it would be insurmountable difficult to offer volunteers a choice of tokens. It might slow the line to check out a bit if a volunteer was unfamiliar with the tokens and what they do.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with your 2nd point. As you know, most of us who collect tokens are semi addicted to collecting. I think if someone has a budget of $500 to purchase tokens and they receive a bonus of $500 for volunteering, I believe they would still spend that $500 to purchase more tokens. I don’t think it would negatively impact sales in any significant way.

MasterED wrote: [q]I know a number of volunteers have never or don't regularly play TD. They do it for the volunteer perks and sell their volunteer token. Those wouldn't be interested in a non-stacking TE. They would want to sell it and the market would be newer players so no where near $100. Same goes for the focus item. The value to the volunteers (on the token) is it is in demand so either they want it, because they play, or they can sell it for a nice $ to augment the perks of volunteering.

I believe the answer is make the volunteer token somewhere between UR and Relic, and something the player base would want.

By no means did I intentionally ignore the need for keeping good volunteers and replacing weak ones. That still has to be done. TD needs a good feedback system on a number of things (volunteers, rooms, and overall experience).

Ed

I agree that a limited TE token wouldn't help the volunteers who sell their tokens, which is why the idea of an option of 3 would be nice.

I disagree that a focus item would not be in demand. An ioun stone, charm, or other slot that doesn't currently have one could be quite in demand, or at least as in demand as charms that boost melee stats.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think I see Mike's point here.

1. There are not so many volunteers that there would be enough volunteer TE to fill the demand for those tokens (some people have to have 10 just in case).

2. There ARE enough volunteers that giving them vouchers for URs might impact token sales.

Point 2 is hard to argue. If we change what people get for free to something that they were buying, they will have less of a need to buy it, there by driving sales down.
That said, many volunteers dont play, so how much things would change is a question.

Point 1 is also probably true. One could argue that such an item would increase volunteering dramatically, or shift the market on volunteer tokens substantially, which may be good or bad. It would also increase the loot cap, and possibly quickly.

Would it be so difficult to allow volunteers a choice of

Couple of things:
I don’t think it would be insurmountable difficult to offer volunteers a choice of tokens. It might slow the line to check out a bit if a volunteer was unfamiliar with the tokens and what they do.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with your 2nd point. As you know, most of us who collect tokens are semi addicted to collecting. I think if someone has a budget of $500 to purchase tokens and they receive a bonus of $500 for volunteering, I believe they would still spend that $500 to purchase more tokens. I don’t think it would negatively impact sales in any significant way.

Reasonable people can disagree about things like point 2.
I agree that some of the token collectors would still spend. Those who consider their time a resource might not. It would certainly be individualized.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

MasterED wrote: [q]I know a number of volunteers have never or don't regularly play TD. They do it for the volunteer perks and sell their volunteer token. Those wouldn't be interested in a non-stacking TE. They would want to sell it and the market would be newer players so no where near $100. Same goes for the focus item. The value to the volunteers (on the token) is it is in demand so either they want it, because they play, or they can sell it for a nice $ to augment the perks of volunteering.

I agree that a limited TE token wouldn't help the volunteers who sell their tokens, which is why the idea of an option of 3 would be nice.

I disagree that a focus item would not be in demand. An ioun stone, charm, or other slot that doesn't currently have one could be quite in demand, or at least as in demand as charms that boost melee stats.

@Focus Item - It would entire depend on the slot and powers. I could see where it would be in demand and others where it would not be. Going back to my comment if you make the TE an in-demand token, regardless of power, it would be worthwhile to the volunteers that were selling and to the volunteers that play. That should be the goal.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think I see Mike's point here.

1. There are not so many volunteers that there would be enough volunteer TE to fill the demand for those tokens (some people have to have 10 just in case).

2. There ARE enough volunteers that giving them vouchers for URs might impact token sales.

Point 2 is hard to argue. If we change what people get for free to something that they were buying, they will have less of a need to buy it, there by driving sales down.
That said, many volunteers dont play, so how much things would change is a question.

Point 1 is also probably true. One could argue that such an item would increase volunteering dramatically, or shift the market on volunteer tokens substantially, which may be good or bad. It would also increase the loot cap, and possibly quickly.

Would it be so difficult to allow volunteers a choice of 3 tokens?
The current one
A focus item
A TE that doesnt stack either the CoA, AotF, RoR of CoGF? My thinking with this one is that it might keep down demand, at least to some degree.

I'm genuinely asking, as I haven't volunteered for TD before.

I know a number of volunteers have never or don't regularly play TD. They do it for the volunteer perks and sell their volunteer token. Those wouldn't be interested in a non-stacking TE. They would want to sell it and the market would be newer players so no where near $100. Same goes for the focus item. The value to the volunteers (on the token) is it is in demand so either they want it, because they play, or they can sell it for a nice $ to augment the perks of volunteering.

I believe the answer is make the volunteer token somewhere between UR and Relic, and something the player base would want.

By no means did I intentionally ignore the need for keeping good volunteers and replacing weak ones. That still has to be done. TD needs a good feedback system on a number of things (volunteers, rooms, and overall experience).

Ed

Yet again I fall in the narrow middle. I volunteer 2 out of 4 cons and a big reason is limited vacation days and more importantly i actively want to play. Right now it is hurdle to reliably play at smaller cons due the single shift structure. I did local install this year at Origins and a big reason for that was so i can pick and choose what days to play what runs.

I'm all for giving volunteers credit for tokens/PyP's based on given attendance, this gives us options to get what we need/want for our builds if we play or option to sell off if we don't.

Agree on the concept on better feedback on specific dungeons/rooms/staff.

Question: has any consideration been given to a transmute path whereby volunteer tokens over the years could be combined into a fancy relic or legendary? For example, assuming we will be seeing volunteer charms with +2 str, dex, con, and saves, would TPTB ever consider allowing those to be transmuted into a relic or legendary super charm that possesses all those stat boosts in a single charm? Yes, it would be powerful. But it would also potentially make the volunteer tokens more valuable and reward volunteers who have been at it for multiple seasons. (Forgive me if this has already been discussed elsewhere. Search-fu is failing me.)