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TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt)

2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #85

Fiddy wrote:
I agree with the general idea. Including making them long-term available. But, Exalted transmutes are generally still weaker than URs.

Several +2 UR weapons can be pointed to that either have no additional benefits (last year's shillelagh) or whose benefits are offset by downsides (this year's hammers).

So, what you'd probably need to do is limit the idea to the Exalted level, and have them generate +2 weapons with some minor downside.


Well most of the +2 UR weapons are actually better than the simple upgrade would imply. Example:

The +2 war shillelagh UR you've mentioned has a damage range of 3-15. The +1 rare shillelagh is 2-7. Following my suggestion, the +2 morning star would be 3-8. That sounds about right, on top of the +2 to hit, for an exalted level transmute. Matter of fact, that's the same damage code as the +1 bliss hammer from this year, so in the case of that one maybe need to add something more?


So I don't know if there needs to be a downside, it just doesn't get the damage boost or special rule that +2 URs get.
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Last edit: by Adam Pillari.

2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #86

Fiddy wrote: My $0.02: The Fighters ought to get a new transmute weapon before the other classes. Last year's hammers brought every other class (other than Clerics) up to the point where the difference to the Slayer swords is miniscule.

Yes, they just got the Redoubt Set, but they gave to share it.

They have so little unique to them, especially the Human Fighters. Even their special ability on their card has been given away in a figurine.

I can understand your opinion but the numbers show that Fighters and Paladins have the most number of usable legendaries in the game (11). While some classes only have 6.

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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #87

Adam Pillari wrote:

Fiddy wrote:
I agree with the general idea. Including making them long-term available. But, Exalted transmutes are generally still weaker than URs.

Several +2 UR weapons can be pointed to that either have no additional benefits (last year's shillelagh) or whose benefits are offset by downsides (this year's hammers).

So, what you'd probably need to do is limit the idea to the Exalted level, and have them generate +2 weapons with some minor downside.


Well most of the +2 UR weapons are actually better than the simple upgrade would imply. Example:

The +2 war shillelagh UR you've mentioned has a damage range of 3-15. The +1 rare shillelagh is 2-7. Following my suggestion, the +2 morning star would be 3-8. That sounds about right, on top of the +2 to hit, for an exalted level transmute. Matter of fact, that's the same damage code as the +1 bliss hammer from this year, so in the case of that one maybe need to add something more?


So I don't know if there needs to be a downside, it just doesn't get the damage boost or special rule that +2 URs get.


I don't think you would need to worry about giving more when it comes to the +2 morning star. The +1 bliss hammer would be better at damage in the bliss than the +2 morning star, but the morning star would have that extra +1 to hit, and doesn't have to worry about being relevant against certain monsters or in a certain area.

Honestly, given its only a minor upgrade from the rare, does it need to be exalted?

Also, while we are tossing in ideas for newer players at lower level transmutes, what about upgrades to the googles of treasure seeking or cloak of many pockets? Still only allow them to be the only treasure enhancer, but let them get transmuted to +2 and +3?

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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #88

Endgame wrote:
I don't think you would need to worry about giving more when it comes to the +2 morning star. The +1 bliss hammer would be better at damage in the bliss than the +2 morning star, but the morning star would have that extra +1 to hit, and doesn't have to worry about being relevant against certain monsters or in a certain area.

Honestly, given its only a minor upgrade from the rare, does it need to be exalted?

Also, while we are tossing in ideas for newer players at lower level transmutes, what about upgrades to the googles of treasure seeking or cloak of many pockets? Still only allow them to be the only treasure enhancer, but let them get transmuted to +2 and +3?


Perhaps. Either way, it's just an example, and I think we're on the same page in our line of thinking, in that the power level needs to be between rare and UR. A shiny, slightly-better-than-rare reliable weapon that can be transmuted from another rare of the same type, good for newer people with a small amount of transmute mats or as a good weapon for a backup class. The blue token would look cool, and the +1/+1 compared to the red version would be nice as well.

As far as the goggles, that idea isn't bad IMO. I mean, most people have played games where at some point, you can take a good weapon, and make it just slightly better with enchanting or something like that. That's why I'm thinking along this line, it would be something that people could recognize.
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Last edit: by Adam Pillari.

2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #89

In regards to a transmute involving the +1 weapons, maybe that just makes the +3 damage in bliss unrestricted to bliss. It maybe isn't the most exciting thing, but bumping the damage wheel up by 3 seems closer to the right power for a low tier transmute than +1 to hit and damage. Plus with recent history it seems like maybe it's standard to have the +3 damage weapons every year appropriate to the target theme so it shouldn't really expand power creep.

If it still feels a bit much maybe drop it to 2 extra damage of an appropriate energy type (cold) related to where it came from.

Sorry if this was already recommended, I didn't go through the entire thread.

Downside is maybe casual players don't feel the need to buy a couple packs each year to try to get new weapons for the target environment, but I'm not sure how much that is happening anyway.

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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #90

Aegoce wrote: In regards to a transmute involving the +1 weapons, maybe that just makes the +3 damage in bliss unrestricted to bliss. It maybe isn't the most exciting thing, but bumping the damage wheel up by 3 seems closer to the right power for a low tier transmute than +1 to hit and damage. Plus with recent history it seems like maybe it's standard to have the +3 damage weapons every year appropriate to the target theme so it shouldn't really expand power creep.

If it still feels a bit much maybe drop it to 2 extra damage of an appropriate energy type (cold) related to where it came from.

Sorry if this was already recommended, I didn't go through the entire thread.

Downside is maybe casual players don't feel the need to buy a couple packs each year to try to get new weapons for the target environment, but I'm not sure how much that is happening anyway.


I see 2 problems with that.

1. +3 to damage all the time is huge. It would flat out make newer tokens obsolete, make the new reds kinda....meh. +3 to everything on the wheel is encroaching on UR territory. The original idea is something that is a good standby, that would be outclassed easily by an UR, and MAYBE might be outclassed by the right rare used at the correct time, usable by someone who can't afford the massive material costs of a relic or legendary, or for someone's off-class set where they want something better than a red.

2. We're not looking for "of appropriate energy type from where it came from". The idea was a general purpose, turn any red weapon into a slightly better blue, transmute. The transmutes would always be available, wouldn't expire. So for example, this years bliss, last years iron, the thrall weapons from 2016, etc....they would all transmute to a weapon of the same type that is slightly better than most rares, but not nearly as good as an UR.

The materials cost would be low, something akin to the cost of the charm of health or iron/bronzeclad cloaks. Those were my first transmutes, and even that small +2 to health from the charm was....in someway special.
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Last edit: by Adam Pillari.

2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #91

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Adam Pillari wrote:

Aegoce wrote: In regards to a transmute involving the +1 weapons, maybe that just makes the +3 damage in bliss unrestricted to bliss. It maybe isn't the most exciting thing, but bumping the damage wheel up by 3 seems closer to the right power for a low tier transmute than +1 to hit and damage. Plus with recent history it seems like maybe it's standard to have the +3 damage weapons every year appropriate to the target theme so it shouldn't really expand power creep.

If it still feels a bit much maybe drop it to 2 extra damage of an appropriate energy type (cold) related to where it came from.

Sorry if this was already recommended, I didn't go through the entire thread.

Downside is maybe casual players don't feel the need to buy a couple packs each year to try to get new weapons for the target environment, but I'm not sure how much that is happening anyway.


I see 2 problems with that.

1. +3 to damage all the time is huge. It would flat out make newer tokens obsolete, make the new reds kinda....meh. +3 to everything on the wheel is encroaching on UR territory. The original idea is something that is a good standby, that would be outclassed easily by an UR, and MAYBE might be outclassed by the right rare used at the correct time, usable by someone who can't afford the massive material costs of a relic or legendary, or for someone's off-class set where they want something better than a red.

2. We're not looking for "of appropriate energy type from where it came from". The idea was a general purpose, turn any red weapon into a slightly better blue, transmute. The transmutes would always be available, wouldn't expire. So for example, this years bliss, last years iron, the thrall weapons from 2016, etc....they would all transmute to a weapon of the same type that is slightly better than most rares, but not nearly as good as an UR.

The materials cost would be low, something akin to the cost of the charm of health or iron/bronzeclad cloaks. Those were my first transmutes, and even that small +2 to health from the charm was....in someway special.


The problem is there isn't much room between R an UR in a lot of cases. Just look at +2 short sword of the sun vs +1 bliss hammer, there isn't much difference between them.


tokendb.com/token/2-short-sword-of-the-sun/


tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-hammer/

And a lot of the value of an UR weapon comes from that +1 hit. I'd even go so far as to say that if your using a good red weapon you already have a good enough weapon for HC. For a newbie crafted weapon similar to charm of health I suspect something like +1 silver rapier might be a better model, but it only upgraded an uncommon claymore to rare level.

tokendb.com/token/1-silver-rapier/

Now a days I dont suspect such an item like that would get much traction outside the just cracked their first 1-3 packs crowd which maybe we want to target, but given how easy it is to get a +1 weapon they might be better served by crafting something like a +2 saves cloak or +1 saves ioun stone equivalent.
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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #92

Picc wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote:

Aegoce wrote: In regards to a transmute involving the +1 weapons, maybe that just makes the +3 damage in bliss unrestricted to bliss. It maybe isn't the most exciting thing, but bumping the damage wheel up by 3 seems closer to the right power for a low tier transmute than +1 to hit and damage. Plus with recent history it seems like maybe it's standard to have the +3 damage weapons every year appropriate to the target theme so it shouldn't really expand power creep.

If it still feels a bit much maybe drop it to 2 extra damage of an appropriate energy type (cold) related to where it came from.

Sorry if this was already recommended, I didn't go through the entire thread.

Downside is maybe casual players don't feel the need to buy a couple packs each year to try to get new weapons for the target environment, but I'm not sure how much that is happening anyway.


I see 2 problems with that.

1. +3 to damage all the time is huge. It would flat out make newer tokens obsolete, make the new reds kinda....meh. +3 to everything on the wheel is encroaching on UR territory. The original idea is something that is a good standby, that would be outclassed easily by an UR, and MAYBE might be outclassed by the right rare used at the correct time, usable by someone who can't afford the massive material costs of a relic or legendary, or for someone's off-class set where they want something better than a red.

2. We're not looking for "of appropriate energy type from where it came from". The idea was a general purpose, turn any red weapon into a slightly better blue, transmute. The transmutes would always be available, wouldn't expire. So for example, this years bliss, last years iron, the thrall weapons from 2016, etc....they would all transmute to a weapon of the same type that is slightly better than most rares, but not nearly as good as an UR.

The materials cost would be low, something akin to the cost of the charm of health or iron/bronzeclad cloaks. Those were my first transmutes, and even that small +2 to health from the charm was....in someway special.


The problem is there isn't much room between R an UR in a lot of cases. Just look at +2 short sword of the sun vs +1 bliss hammer, there isn't much difference between them.


tokendb.com/token/2-short-sword-of-the-sun/


tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-hammer/

And a lot of the value of an UR weapon comes from that +1 hit. I'd even go so far as to say that if your using a good red weapon you already have a good enough weapon for HC. For a newbie crafted weapon similar to charm of health I suspect something like +1 silver rapier might be a better model, but it only upgraded an uncommon claymore to rare level.

tokendb.com/token/1-silver-rapier/

Now a days I dont suspect such an item like that would get much traction outside the just cracked their first 1-3 packs crowd which maybe we want to target, but given how easy it is to get a +1 weapon they might be better served by crafting something like a +2 saves cloak or +1 saves ioun stone equivalent.


Is there any expectation that 7+ year old wood tokens are still competitive today? From other discussions on the forum it seems like most of those have been eclipsed?

Lets look at a few Rares that might be transmuted to +2s vs UR that I think make more sense, back from when I started in 2015:

Lets say I want to transmute a mace. I take a +! drow blood mace:
( tokendb.com/token/1-drow-blood-mace/ ) and it becomes a +2 mace (no extra text on the token).

Compare against the UR:
tokendb.com/token/2-deadly-drow-blood-mace/ . Same damage wheel, but you gain +2 health every hit when you use the blood mace.

Maybe I want a 2 handed axe. I take one from this year ( tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-berserker-axe/ ) and make it a +2 Great Axe. Now I compare against an axe that was available 2 years ago: tokendb.com/token/2-deathcleaver/ Neither has text on it, but the average damage on the death cleaver is quite a bit higher.

The question here is, at what level should I be gear capped before I have to spend $100+ per token? Right now it feels like the capping happens mostly at rare, especially with weapons. It would be really nice if that cap was a lot closer to purple.

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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #93

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote:

Aegoce wrote: In regards to a transmute involving the +1 weapons, maybe that just makes the +3 damage in bliss unrestricted to bliss. It maybe isn't the most exciting thing, but bumping the damage wheel up by 3 seems closer to the right power for a low tier transmute than +1 to hit and damage. Plus with recent history it seems like maybe it's standard to have the +3 damage weapons every year appropriate to the target theme so it shouldn't really expand power creep.

If it still feels a bit much maybe drop it to 2 extra damage of an appropriate energy type (cold) related to where it came from.

Sorry if this was already recommended, I didn't go through the entire thread.

Downside is maybe casual players don't feel the need to buy a couple packs each year to try to get new weapons for the target environment, but I'm not sure how much that is happening anyway.


I see 2 problems with that.

1. +3 to damage all the time is huge. It would flat out make newer tokens obsolete, make the new reds kinda....meh. +3 to everything on the wheel is encroaching on UR territory. The original idea is something that is a good standby, that would be outclassed easily by an UR, and MAYBE might be outclassed by the right rare used at the correct time, usable by someone who can't afford the massive material costs of a relic or legendary, or for someone's off-class set where they want something better than a red.

2. We're not looking for "of appropriate energy type from where it came from". The idea was a general purpose, turn any red weapon into a slightly better blue, transmute. The transmutes would always be available, wouldn't expire. So for example, this years bliss, last years iron, the thrall weapons from 2016, etc....they would all transmute to a weapon of the same type that is slightly better than most rares, but not nearly as good as an UR.

The materials cost would be low, something akin to the cost of the charm of health or iron/bronzeclad cloaks. Those were my first transmutes, and even that small +2 to health from the charm was....in someway special.


The problem is there isn't much room between R an UR in a lot of cases. Just look at +2 short sword of the sun vs +1 bliss hammer, there isn't much difference between them.


tokendb.com/token/2-short-sword-of-the-sun/


tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-hammer/

And a lot of the value of an UR weapon comes from that +1 hit. I'd even go so far as to say that if your using a good red weapon you already have a good enough weapon for HC. For a newbie crafted weapon similar to charm of health I suspect something like +1 silver rapier might be a better model, but it only upgraded an uncommon claymore to rare level.

tokendb.com/token/1-silver-rapier/

Now a days I dont suspect such an item like that would get much traction outside the just cracked their first 1-3 packs crowd which maybe we want to target, but given how easy it is to get a +1 weapon they might be better served by crafting something like a +2 saves cloak or +1 saves ioun stone equivalent.


Is there any expectation that 7+ year old wood tokens are still competitive today? From other discussions on the forum it seems like most of those have been eclipsed?

Lets look at a few Rares that might be transmuted to +2s vs UR that I think make more sense, back from when I started in 2015:

Lets say I want to transmute a mace. I take a +! drow blood mace:
( tokendb.com/token/1-drow-blood-mace/ ) and it becomes a +2 mace (no extra text on the token).

Compare against the UR:
tokendb.com/token/2-deadly-drow-blood-mace/ . Same damage wheel, but you gain +2 health every hit when you use the blood mace.

Maybe I want a 2 handed axe. I take one from this year ( tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-berserker-axe/ ) and make it a +2 Great Axe. Now I compare against an axe that was available 2 years ago: tokendb.com/token/2-deathcleaver/ Neither has text on it, but the average damage on the death cleaver is quite a bit higher.

The question here is, at what level should I be gear capped before I have to spend $100+ per token? Right now it feels like the capping happens mostly at rare, especially with weapons. It would be really nice if that cap was a lot closer to purple.


Wooden tokens (except for Treasure Chips) haven't been printed since 2006, the Short Sword of the Sun was a Chip token.

Even for the older UR weapons, I wouldn't want to see a transmute that is equal to them unless the cost of the transmute is fairly close to a UR cost. The bump to +2 to hit is the UR level, so if a transmute weapon includes +2 to hit, the recipe should be pretty expensive, or it really devalues UR weapons.

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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #94

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote:

Aegoce wrote: In regards to a transmute involving the +1 weapons, maybe that just makes the +3 damage in bliss unrestricted to bliss. It maybe isn't the most exciting thing, but bumping the damage wheel up by 3 seems closer to the right power for a low tier transmute than +1 to hit and damage. Plus with recent history it seems like maybe it's standard to have the +3 damage weapons every year appropriate to the target theme so it shouldn't really expand power creep.

If it still feels a bit much maybe drop it to 2 extra damage of an appropriate energy type (cold) related to where it came from.

Sorry if this was already recommended, I didn't go through the entire thread.

Downside is maybe casual players don't feel the need to buy a couple packs each year to try to get new weapons for the target environment, but I'm not sure how much that is happening anyway.


I see 2 problems with that.

1. +3 to damage all the time is huge. It would flat out make newer tokens obsolete, make the new reds kinda....meh. +3 to everything on the wheel is encroaching on UR territory. The original idea is something that is a good standby, that would be outclassed easily by an UR, and MAYBE might be outclassed by the right rare used at the correct time, usable by someone who can't afford the massive material costs of a relic or legendary, or for someone's off-class set where they want something better than a red.

2. We're not looking for "of appropriate energy type from where it came from". The idea was a general purpose, turn any red weapon into a slightly better blue, transmute. The transmutes would always be available, wouldn't expire. So for example, this years bliss, last years iron, the thrall weapons from 2016, etc....they would all transmute to a weapon of the same type that is slightly better than most rares, but not nearly as good as an UR.

The materials cost would be low, something akin to the cost of the charm of health or iron/bronzeclad cloaks. Those were my first transmutes, and even that small +2 to health from the charm was....in someway special.


The problem is there isn't much room between R an UR in a lot of cases. Just look at +2 short sword of the sun vs +1 bliss hammer, there isn't much difference between them.


tokendb.com/token/2-short-sword-of-the-sun/


tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-hammer/

And a lot of the value of an UR weapon comes from that +1 hit. I'd even go so far as to say that if your using a good red weapon you already have a good enough weapon for HC. For a newbie crafted weapon similar to charm of health I suspect something like +1 silver rapier might be a better model, but it only upgraded an uncommon claymore to rare level.

tokendb.com/token/1-silver-rapier/

Now a days I dont suspect such an item like that would get much traction outside the just cracked their first 1-3 packs crowd which maybe we want to target, but given how easy it is to get a +1 weapon they might be better served by crafting something like a +2 saves cloak or +1 saves ioun stone equivalent.


Is there any expectation that 7+ year old wood tokens are still competitive today? From other discussions on the forum it seems like most of those have been eclipsed?

Lets look at a few Rares that might be transmuted to +2s vs UR that I think make more sense, back from when I started in 2015:

Lets say I want to transmute a mace. I take a +! drow blood mace:
( tokendb.com/token/1-drow-blood-mace/ ) and it becomes a +2 mace (no extra text on the token).

Compare against the UR:
tokendb.com/token/2-deadly-drow-blood-mace/ . Same damage wheel, but you gain +2 health every hit when you use the blood mace.

Maybe I want a 2 handed axe. I take one from this year ( tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-berserker-axe/ ) and make it a +2 Great Axe. Now I compare against an axe that was available 2 years ago: tokendb.com/token/2-deathcleaver/ Neither has text on it, but the average damage on the death cleaver is quite a bit higher.

The question here is, at what level should I be gear capped before I have to spend $100+ per token? Right now it feels like the capping happens mostly at rare, especially with weapons. It would be really nice if that cap was a lot closer to purple.


Wooden tokens (except for Treasure Chips) haven't been printed since 2006, the Short Sword of the Sun was a Chip token.

Even for the older UR weapons, I wouldn't want to see a transmute that is equal to them unless the cost of the transmute is fairly close to a UR cost. The bump to +2 to hit is the UR level, so if a transmute weapon includes +2 to hit, the recipe should be pretty expensive, or it really devalues UR weapons.


Looking over what my group has gotten running 2 adventures every year since Gen Con 2015 (and 4 this year), we have enough chips we could transmute for 3-4 of every trade good, short of Argonite.

I'm not opposed to the recipe containing something like a golden fleece, or most of the non fleece trade goods, + the rare, but it should definitely shouldn't cost more than, say, the +2 Holy Great Sword

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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #95

Endgame wrote: The question here is, at what level should I be gear capped before I have to spend $100+ per token? Right now it feels like the capping happens mostly at rare, especially with weapons. It would be really nice if that cap was a lot closer to purple.


Is that niche something that needs to be filled directly by TD? Or is this something that perhaps the secondary market is well-suited to solve?

If your goal is just to get a +2 weapon for < $100, why not just grab an older UR? It seems like there are plenty that tend to go for around $50, some even less.

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2019 Transmuted Token Suggestions (Non-Kilt) 5 years 8 months ago #96

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Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote:

Aegoce wrote: In regards to a transmute involving the +1 weapons, maybe that just makes the +3 damage in bliss unrestricted to bliss. It maybe isn't the most exciting thing, but bumping the damage wheel up by 3 seems closer to the right power for a low tier transmute than +1 to hit and damage. Plus with recent history it seems like maybe it's standard to have the +3 damage weapons every year appropriate to the target theme so it shouldn't really expand power creep.

If it still feels a bit much maybe drop it to 2 extra damage of an appropriate energy type (cold) related to where it came from.

Sorry if this was already recommended, I didn't go through the entire thread.

Downside is maybe casual players don't feel the need to buy a couple packs each year to try to get new weapons for the target environment, but I'm not sure how much that is happening anyway.


I see 2 problems with that.

1. +3 to damage all the time is huge. It would flat out make newer tokens obsolete, make the new reds kinda....meh. +3 to everything on the wheel is encroaching on UR territory. The original idea is something that is a good standby, that would be outclassed easily by an UR, and MAYBE might be outclassed by the right rare used at the correct time, usable by someone who can't afford the massive material costs of a relic or legendary, or for someone's off-class set where they want something better than a red.

2. We're not looking for "of appropriate energy type from where it came from". The idea was a general purpose, turn any red weapon into a slightly better blue, transmute. The transmutes would always be available, wouldn't expire. So for example, this years bliss, last years iron, the thrall weapons from 2016, etc....they would all transmute to a weapon of the same type that is slightly better than most rares, but not nearly as good as an UR.

The materials cost would be low, something akin to the cost of the charm of health or iron/bronzeclad cloaks. Those were my first transmutes, and even that small +2 to health from the charm was....in someway special.


The problem is there isn't much room between R an UR in a lot of cases. Just look at +2 short sword of the sun vs +1 bliss hammer, there isn't much difference between them.


tokendb.com/token/2-short-sword-of-the-sun/


tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-hammer/

And a lot of the value of an UR weapon comes from that +1 hit. I'd even go so far as to say that if your using a good red weapon you already have a good enough weapon for HC. For a newbie crafted weapon similar to charm of health I suspect something like +1 silver rapier might be a better model, but it only upgraded an uncommon claymore to rare level.

tokendb.com/token/1-silver-rapier/

Now a days I dont suspect such an item like that would get much traction outside the just cracked their first 1-3 packs crowd which maybe we want to target, but given how easy it is to get a +1 weapon they might be better served by crafting something like a +2 saves cloak or +1 saves ioun stone equivalent.


Is there any expectation that 7+ year old wood tokens are still competitive today?


2004 Ring of Three Wishes, is still quite sought after
2005 +2 Long Sword, is litterally what your asking for (and a chippy), there were other regular +2 UR weapons that year but they were woodies so we can probably ignore them
2005/2006 Cloak of Displacement was functionally reprinted as cloak of shadowskin (which a lot of people are asking for a reprint of this year)
2006 Hand of glory also still shows up in some competitive wizard builds
2007 Nightshades short sword (I still use one in my Relic+ level rogue build)
Oh and 2007 horn of plenty

So yes there are definitely still old URs from the 2007 and back era that are still competitive. Granted they are not woodies, but they are from the same years.

Endgame wrote: From other discussions on the forum it seems like most of those have been eclipsed?

Yes, for the most part by relics.

Endgame wrote: Lets look at a few Rares that might be transmuted to +2s vs UR that I think make more sense, back from when I started in 2015:

Lets say I want to transmute a mace. I take a +! drow blood mace:
( tokendb.com/token/1-drow-blood-mace/ ) and it becomes a +2 mace (no extra text on the token).


Then once the +2 is recorded on the party card you switch back to a weapon with a better power like the +1 mace. Not saying you would do that, but many would if +2 weapons were cheaply available.

Endgame wrote:
Compare against the UR:
tokendb.com/token/2-deadly-drow-blood-mace/ . Same damage wheel, but you gain +2 health every hit when you use the blood mace.

Maybe I want a 2 handed axe. I take one from this year ( tokendb.com/token/1-bliss-berserker-axe/ ) and make it a +2 Great Axe. Now I compare against an axe that was available 2 years ago: tokendb.com/token/2-deathcleaver/ Neither has text on it, but the average damage on the death cleaver is quite a bit higher.

The question here is, at what level should I be gear capped before I have to spend $100+ per token? Right now it feels like the capping happens mostly at rare, especially with weapons. It would be really nice if that cap was a lot closer to purple.


All I'm really getting from this is that modern +1 rares are really good and easily available. Heck some URs that are still considered quite strong (like the might bow) are only +1.

I also don't think the argument about the gap between +1 rares and +2 URs holds when considered in light of other rares.

So a +2 holy great sword can be had for well under $100 (ask around and I'm sure you could find an equally cheap short sword of the sun or +2 long sword) so lets call $60 our ceiling (though you could probably find one even cheaper if you wanted).

The same site offers I linked above offers
Gauntlets of Ogre Power for 5.95
Belt of Ogre power is 19.95 (but belt of the berserker is only 0.75cents)
Ring of the Hallowed 9.95
Bliss Bull Armor is 1.95
Bliss Bull Helm is 1.95
Bliss Bull Shield is 1.71
Necklace of the Birch is 0.85cents


So for about $20 you can get to +5/+5 before you ever pick up a weapon and thats going to be a lot more important to bridging the gap to nightmare play then getting +1 more to attack from a crafted weapon.


!00% granted we did not leave ourselves enough design space between Rare/UR (though remember it was several years before relics/legionaries were a thing and in the original design they did not want URs to feel like a requirement). But in today's environment the only was I can see a cheaply craft-able +2 weapon happening is if it has a big drawback (which the people its targeted at wont like) and I would still not recommend making since as I said above it would just be used to get +2 on the card before being switched out in the dungeon.

Not trying to poo-poo your idea, just not sure it can work given the current game state.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”

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