TOPIC: In depth feedback, as requested by in game GMs

The reality of class selection being first come first serve is ridiculous. This year I showed up to an event exactly 30 min before start only to find a group of 4 already in and selections made. It was my last run of the con and I had given up my first choice of Druid 3 times already so I tried to have a discussion with the player who just said too bad we were here first. I finally had to push for a random chance solution, lost, switch classes and still had a good time. I hope he would have been as understanding if he had lost. But you can't call someone a jerk if they are following the rules. Especially if the volunteers at the desk let someone in even earlier than 30 minutes. This is not a dig at the volunteers who do a great job sorting through a lot of people in a short time frame. This is always going to be an issue but at least this way there is a resolution system in place. I guess the the other option is a complete random selection. Just role a die at the front desk and be assigned your character and watch everyone's head explode!

NoOneElsesName wrote: FIRST: Why the heck am I allowed to create a user account with the same name as someone else? Because I just wrote this post, hit Submit, and it told me I'm not allowed to use someone else's name. So, I can MAKE the ACCOUNT, but I cannot use it. So I have now made a THIRD account, hoping no one else has this name. *snip*

As a point of order, you can change the name that shows up by your posts.

Click "Profile" (beside My Topics), select "Edit Profile" (button on the top left above the avatar picture), change the Name (User Name is greyed out and cannot be changed).

I too found this obnoxious when I first logged in, but it was a simple enough thing to fix.

Not that it matters much, but I thought I'd share my findings, in case it allows you to go back down to 2 accounts rather than 3.

NoOneElsesName wrote: FIRST: Why the heck am I allowed to create a user account with the same name as someone else? Because I just wrote this post, hit Submit, and it told me I'm not allowed to use someone else's name. So, I can MAKE the ACCOUNT, but I cannot use it. So I have now made a THIRD account, hoping no one else has this name, in an attempt to post this:

Yes, the forums are rather quirky and unintuitive at times.
There is definite room for improvement!

The BIGGEST issue myself and my girlfriend have had, and the number one reason we are only doing one session, and maybe/likely none at all next year? The absolutely horrific way that groups and classes are assigned. In other words: utterly random, unless you have 7+ other friends both going to Gen Con and willing to drop $50 each on the event.

Ideally, everyone should be using the TD forums to find each other, and then figuring out classes well ahead of time.

Unfortunately, way too many people are too lazy to do that.

This year, I was actively keeping track of every single Grind run (as Grind DM). There were cases when I knew who all 10 people on the run would be. And I tried to put them in touch with each other (here is the forum thread for the event, PM each other). Yet they never ended up discussing class selection (despite my strong suggestion) so they were still figuring it out during the coaching session. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

TD 4: It's funny, as I write this, I just realized part of the problem... I was about to write how TD 4 was a blast and we had a GREAT time, when I realized that the times we truly enjoyed TD were the times where we ran with new/newer groups.

You are correct that a large portion of the time, who you do the adventure with has a major impact on how fun (or unfun) your experience is.

That is actually why I don't bother with random pick-up groups any more (that and I only play Nightmare). I have limited time in GenCon (due to my volunteer schedule) so I'd rather do TD with cool people who I know are fun, rather than risk a run with 9 strangers, some of whom statistically are probably jerks.

That being said, one moderate complaint about the Underdark one: We signed up for the puzzle version. We had 3 combat rooms and 4 puzzle rooms. When the 3rd combat room happened, a good number of us started questioning if we actually were in the right dungeon. TD guys, seriously, if I sign up for the puzzle version, don't make almost half of the rooms combat related.

There are only 2 rooms which are different between Combat and Puzzle.

Underdark combat had 5 combat rooms and 2 puzzle rooms.

So your version definitely was more puzzle oriented....

Newbies there to have fun make the game fun. Experienced players there to win, to get those treasure tokens (we had one guy in the last room touch the pool after a guess say "Don't care if I die, as long as I get that treasure token"), make the endeavor a miserable waste of $50.

Funny, cause I far prefer playing with experienced players. Newbies, being new, tend to be slower, less efficient, need more handholding, and can sometimes be a liability for overall party success. (And of course there are plenty of experienced players who are spoiled, bratty, self-entitled, pompous jerks but I try to adventure with experienced players who aren't those things!).

MasterED wrote: There is a system for determining classes. If I get this wrong someone will certainly correct me. If two people want the same class and they are both 3rd level (player experience not character level) then they roll (d20) - high wins. If only one is 3rd level player experience they win by default.

Although there are some guidelines/rules, there are still massive gaping holes in how it is supposed to work.

For example, the official TD rules never state what happens if someone who loses the die roll, wants to play his second choice class which is taken. Do they die roll again?

Say you have three players who have the following preferences:

Player A
1. Bard
2. Rogue

Player B

1. Bard
2. Rogue

Player C

1. Rogue
2. Bard


Player A and Player B both want Bard and they are the same player level. They randomly determine who gets it (via die roll) and Player A wins.

Is Player B able to make a claim for the Rogue? If so, and he wins a die roll over Player C, is Player C able to make a claim for his second-choice, the Bard? If not, is Player B forced to choose from the remaining 3 unchosen classes?

---

Also bear in mind that there are often logistical/practical concerns as well.

If the party card is already completed for 9 players and then a 10th player shows up (possibly late), it is a major pain to have to redo stats and cross things out on the party card if the 10th player wants a class that has already been chosen (and has stats written down for).

Incognito wrote: Although there are some guidelines/rules, there are still massive gaping holes in how it is supposed to work.

Agreed. They need to published and as all inclusive as possible.

With today's rules, I would say you should lose your chance to contest a class choice if you arrive after the scheduled start time. People present at the schedule start time follow the rules today and establish the their classes. Anyone arriving late has to take what is remaining regardless of player experience.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Incognito wrote: Although there are some guidelines/rules, there are still massive gaping holes in how it is supposed to work.

Agreed. They need to published and as all inclusive as possible.

With today's rules, I would say you should lose your chance to contest a class choice if you arrive after the scheduled start time. People present at the schedule start time follow the rules today and establish the their classes. Anyone arriving late has to take what is remaining regardless of player experience.

Ed

^^^THIS. And I've been late before. You takes what you can gets. I would say coaches should clarify "late" as anything after the starting time (or 5 mins after to give a little leeway). You learn over time that "early" means 30-45 minutes before your start time.

MasterED wrote:

Incognito wrote: Although there are some guidelines/rules, there are still massive gaping holes in how it is supposed to work.

Agreed. They need to published and as all inclusive as possible.

With today's rules, I would say you should lose your chance to contest a class choice if you arrive after the scheduled start time. People present at the schedule start time follow the rules today and establish the their classes. Anyone arriving late has to take what is remaining regardless of player experience.

The rules should also specify:

1. Can someone else establish a claim for a class on your behalf?

Say you know you will be late. Can you have your best friend or significant other make a claim for you?

2. How early can you show up to make a claim?

Say someone shows up an hour early to check in (so they won't sell their ticket when they arrive late)when no other players are there, tells the coach they want class X and already have their stats, and then leaves, returning shortly after the scheduled start time. How does this work? What happens if there is a class conflict?

Forar wrote:

NoOneElsesName wrote: FIRST: Why the heck am I allowed to create a user account with the same name as someone else? Because I just wrote this post, hit Submit, and it told me I'm not allowed to use someone else's name. So, I can MAKE the ACCOUNT, but I cannot use it. So I have now made a THIRD account, hoping no one else has this name. *snip*

As a point of order, you can change the name that shows up by your posts.

Click "Profile" (beside My Topics), select "Edit Profile" (button on the top left above the avatar picture), change the Name (User Name is greyed out and cannot be changed).

I too found this obnoxious when I first logged in, but it was a simple enough thing to fix.

Not that it matters much, but I thought I'd share my findings, in case it allows you to go back down to 2 accounts rather than 3.

Thanks. I looked for that option and didn't see it. I'll fix my "main" account and post from that from now on. Name will/should be LordDamax.

Wow. I completely missed that "Edit" button on the profile page. Yay! Back to just 1 account! Thanks Forar!

Glad to be of service!

Incognito wrote: Say you have three players who have the following preferences:

Player A
1. Bard
2. Rogue

Player B

1. Bard
2. Rogue

Player C

1. Rogue
2. Bard


Player A and Player B both want Bard and they are the same player level. They randomly determine who gets it (via die roll) and Player A wins.

Is Player B able to make a claim for the Rogue? If so, and he wins a die roll over Player C, is Player C able to make a claim for his second-choice, the Bard? If not, is Player B forced to choose from the remaining 3 unchosen classes?

To the best of my knowledge, you let each player roll the die. Highest untied roll gets first pick. Second highest roll gets second pick. Third highest will (in this situation) have to find a different class.

Incognito wrote: Ideally, everyone should be using the TD forums to find each other, and then figuring out classes well ahead of time.

Unfortunately, way too many people are too lazy to do that.

I don't think it's necessarily them being lazy at all, many of them might not even know the forums exist.

Years ago (during some dark, dark times) when I played World of Warcraft, an incredibly popular game known to have vast forums, they mentioned that something like 1% of their user base even looked at the forums, and even less used them/posted regularly.

Sure, TD could poke people towards making accounts and participating in the community, and yes I agree that if one is spending $50+ on something that a little research and effort is valuable, but at the end of the day it's just listed as another event in the Gencon stable of tens of thousands, and adding 'barriers to entry' to participate isn't going to make it more newcomer friendly (even if they may well be better off for it, this is why tutorial levels, introductory rules sets and whatnot are so useful and popular).