TOPIC: Why did you do more than 5 runs?

joshua baessler wrote: I disagree - if repeating the same dungeon is your idea of fun, go for it so long as you're not ruining anyone else's fun. What I do think we need to get away from are these "challenge" runs where one or a handful of people buy out an entire run and "ghost" the other characters. If a real person is using a ticket, awesome. If one person is buying out 9 additional tickets for the challenge and/or the treasure - I think that's a little wrong. Those are spots that could have gone to other people.

Next year I'm strongly considering just doing the 4 variations of the dungeons and True Grind. Last year I did 9 runs, this year I did 8 + 3 grinds. By Saturday I was exhausted.

joshua baessler wrote: I mentioned it in another thread but I forgot to include it here - I'm on the fence with ghosting/not-ghosting. I can see the appeal of soloing a dungeon (or duo, trio, half, etc) for the achievement - it's our Everest, we do it because it was there. On the other hand, I hate to see anyone miss out on getting to play (I didn't realize that some runs still went not completely full regardless, thanks valetutto). I have nothing at all against buying out a whole run to make sure you have control over who is or is not part of your group.

I just don't like to see a situation where people get turned away when that spot could have had a person. On the other hand, at this point most of the gamer population understands how quickly TD sells out when tickets go-live, so I guess it's really on them to be more prepared.

Opinion withdrawn.

I agree with Joshua.

While I believe that people should have the "right" to solo or ghost a run if they really want to, I don't think it is ultimately a good thing for TD or the TD community.

Okay, I can see groups who want to run 8 players instead of 10, because they think 10 is too large.

I know some people who like to do "double-down" runs with just 5 players.

And then you get down to solo runs, or two or three-person runs, which I personally find wasteful and pointless. Yeah, it might be a fun challenge, but it seems expensive and takes up a lot of slots that could be used by others. But to each, their own.

Instead of truly "solo'ing" a run, a better option might be something like a "torchbearer" run. Henwy and I talked about this theoretical concept last year, where one player essentially solos it, but has 9 torchbearer followers who then "cheer" him on throughout the run. At least this way, you can let some other people experience the dungeon, even if just as supporters.

valetutto wrote: I think supply is currently meeting demand. Yes tickets sold out quick this year but there were tons of runs that went through with open slots that could have been filled and I'm not talking open by choice.

The waitlist folks seemed to be doing their jobs but it just seemed like there wasn't any wait list, meaning supply was good.

Brad Mortensen wrote: When Shelly worked the wait list, there were people waiting for hours because there were zero no-shows. One family waited 12 hrs to try to get three openings, and they finally ran a group of eleven. But I don't have insight into other time periods.

On Sunday, around 1 PM, I was talking to a random guy who was waiting on the wait list.

Apparently, the wait list people weren't doing a good job estimating how long it would take. The guy (and his two friends) had been waiting on the wait list for an hour and a half, and there were still 14 people ahead of him. (And this was Sunday 1 PM). I felt bad for him, and tried to encourage him to try again next year even if he wasn't able to get a run this year.

Brad Mortensen wrote: When Shelly worked the wait list, there were people waiting for hours because there were zero no-shows. One family waited 12 hrs to try to get three openings, and they finally ran a group of eleven. But I don't have insight into other time periods.

I had to ghost one spot on Thursday because of a no show, and no one on the wait list. This also decreased that runs difficulty to hardcore, since it was also a first run of the con.
Almost had to ghost a second spot on Thursday later until the last minute.
The wait list is a finicky beast.
Brad, for info, what day/time frame was Shelly working the wait list?

Both runs were posted early on the forums, although both had 3 spots open up from cancellations from schedule conflicts, but that was also with a month's warning, so there was plenty of opportunity to fill them on the forums.

I would add meeting new people to the list of reasons for additional runs.
I think it may have already been expressed, but a Saturday run is also much more relaxed than a Thursday run. I had a blast on Chip Bowle's nightmare Saturday morning synergy run, and got to meet a number of people I had not run with before, as well as having the pleasure of running with Brad again. Also, the run was guaranteed nightmare. The enhanced nightmare shifted a fair amount of runs to hardcore.

I don't know if it has been expressed already, although I know it was regarding normal, but hardcore seemed ramped up this year as well.

Regarding treasure, it isn't an impetus for me to do additional runs. However, like other tokens, I like to feel I am getting use of my treasure enhancers.

Incognito wrote: On Sunday, around 1 PM, I was talking to a random guy who was waiting on the wait list.

Apparently, the wait list people weren't doing a good job estimating how long it would take. The guy (and his two friends) had been waiting on the wait list for an hour and a half, and there were still 14 people ahead of him. (And this was Sunday 1 PM). I felt bad for him, and tried to encourage him to try again next year even if he wasn't able to get a run this year.

Interestingly enough, there were tons of openings (whole runs) earlier on Sunday morning that I noticed when I was running Logan's Token Trader.

jedibcg wrote:

joshua baessler wrote: I disagree - if repeating the same dungeon is your idea of fun, go for it so long as you're not ruining anyone else's fun. What I do think we need to get away from are these "challenge" runs where one or a handful of people buy out an entire run and "ghost" the other characters. If a real person is using a ticket, awesome. If one person is buying out 9 additional tickets for the challenge and/or the treasure - I think that's a little wrong. Those are spots that could have gone to other people.

And I disagree with this. If you want to buy all 10 tickets and die in the first room it is your prerogative. It doesn't affect how I play. Yes tickets sold out faster than ever but from looking at the forums it seems because more people our buying out entire runs or as many as they can so they can have better control of the run.

Everytime someone was looking for tickets on the forums there were people that had tickets available.

From the perspective of "Does Jeff make the money", a ticket sold is a ticket sold.

From the perspective of bringing new players into the game, tickets being sold via the GenCon event system are better than tickets being re-sold via the forums because there's a higher barrier of entry. While most of the folks on the forums know one another and trust one another, I could understand someone who has never done True Dungeon hesitating to hand over 50 or 100 bucks for tickets for a run. There's also the need to know to go to the forums, rather than seeing "Sold Out" on the registration page and taking it at face value.

So some of you hit on one of my reasons for posing the question: it is likely that more newbies would/could play if the veterans took up fewer slots. If the slots are being done for treasure then there are other options besides wasting a slot that could be sold to a newbie. But personally I like to have fewer than 10 in the dungeon, I'm tempted to go with only 5-man runs max in the future for that reason, so being able to ghost the other slots and get treasure is valuable.

One thing that was new for me this year was that for the slots that I ghosted I received either one or two extra 10-packs. In other words, for my personal slot I received one 10-pack and +14 treasure draws. For the ghost slots I received two or three 10-packs and +14 treasure draws. That seems wrong and a few of us tried to object to the additional packs, but we were told that's how it goes. I definitely don't think a ghost should get more loot than a real player could.

Personally one of each run, plus Grind, plus the Green with Envy run, was enough for me, however had I not been volunteering perhaps I would have done a sealed pack run too.

True but are we talking money or getting bodies into runs?

I buy all the tickets for my group. I get no money from them. So when I run into someone at Gen Con that has never done TD before and would like to give it a try I give them the same offer that my friends have. You play for free I get all the tokens. OR you pay the $52 and keep your tokens (I prefer if they choose before we get our loot not after because it complicate things).

This year I met a couple of guys while playing Legendary. They saw I played TD and asked me about. I told them I had extra tickets to a run and they could come along if they liked. They wanted to know if I could accommodate 3, which I could for that run. So I brought 3 brand new bodies into TD, but the money would have been the same if I haven't.

This is how I now have 2 friends that are buying entire runs for their friends/co-workers, so I must be doing something right.

Kirk Bauer wrote:
One thing that was new for me this year was that for the slots that I ghosted I received either one or two extra 10-packs. In other words, for my personal slot I received one 10-pack and +14 treasure draws. For the ghost slots I received two or three 10-packs and +14 treasure draws. That seems wrong and a few of us tried to object to the additional packs, but we were told that's how it goes. I definitely don't think a ghost should get more loot than a real player could.

This happened to me too. I ended up with 2 ghost out of 40+ tickets I bought. Not because I was attempting to ghost but because either someone didn't show up or I made a mistake and didn't invite enough people on a run.

I too think it is wrong to award ghosting above what a real player would get. I mentioned this last year at TD and on the forums. I mentioned it again at TD and will say it here again now. Ghost should not get anything beyond what a real player should get.

jedibcg wrote: True but are we talking money or getting bodies into runs?

I buy all the tickets for my group. I get no money from them. So when I run into someone at Gen Con that has never done TD before and would like to give it a try I give them the same offer that my friends have. You play for free I get all the tokens. OR you pay the $52 and keep your tokens (I prefer if they choose before we get our loot not after because it complicate things).

This year I met a couple of guys while playing Legendary. They saw I played TD and asked me about. I told them I had extra tickets to a run and they could come along if they liked. They wanted to know if I could accommodate 3, which I could for that run. So I brought 3 brand new bodies into TD, but the money would have been the same if I haven't.

This is how I now have 2 friends that are buying entire runs for their friends/co-workers, so I must be doing something right.

I had a similar experience this year regarding grind. Did a pug with a new player who really seemed to enjoy the combat. Asked if he'd like a challenge with all combat. He expressed an interest but couldn't get a ticket. I ultimately gave him my extra grind ticket and we went direct to the 1:30pm Fri grind. Come to think of that might be why Eric was slightly annoyed with me...

Incognito wrote: Instead of truly "solo'ing" a run, a better option might be something like a "torchbearer" run. Henwy and I talked about this theoretical concept last year, where one player essentially solos it, but has 9 torchbearer followers who then "cheer" him on throughout the run. At least this way, you can let some other people experience the dungeon, even if just as supporters.

Bob Stone had that idea in 2010(?), with having people purchase the other 9 tickets to be witnesses. If I try a solo run next year (not saying I have any intention of doing so), I will do that.

I didn't even know for certain if I would even do a solo run, until after experiencing the dungeons and thinking about each room, and what character type and build until 3:45am Saturday morning. Perhaps the caveat being, the torchbearers become the party if the crazy person solo adventurer chooses to pass on solo?

This would also be a weird concept to achieve through the wait line.

I would imagine the draw would be more for experienced players to see the crazy person adventurer trying a solo run? That might not achieve the intended goal of letting more people see the adventure.
One thing that might help is let the torchbearers solve the puzzles for which you know the answers, that aren't a challenge for a solo player with the knowledge (ie - 1st rooms in each should have been solo'd, or let the torchbearers have fun, but the solo person takes the push damage).

Regarding 5 person runs, I fail to see how 2 of those runs is any less "wasteful" than one three person or one solo run?

This is a great way to do things, and I really like the thought behind it.

Kirk Bauer wrote: In other words, for my personal slot I received one 10-pack and +14 treasure draws. For the ghost slots I received two or three 10-packs and +14 treasure draws. That seems wrong and a few of us tried to object to the additional packs, but we were told that's how it goes. I definitely don't think a ghost should get more loot than a real player could.

I have never heard of a ghost getting more loot than a real person.
That shouldn't happen, since it encourages farming for treasure at the expense slots for others. I did not receive any extra loot for ghosts vs real people.

I did the solo runs because the gauntlet was thrown down in an interview 2 years ago in which it was said "Raven is the only player who has solo'd a dungeon". I already knew that from 2009, but that was just too much of a challenge (as Joshua said, the Everest for TD players). I didn't have the cash to try it last year due to job loss.