TOPIC: I think we have a problem

Beertram wrote:

Garrison wrote: I felt pretty useless on all my runs this year, and I'm mostly purple/relic build.

I can't imagine how miffed newbies must have been.

And I think it should be possible to design puzzles with variable solutions, so that repeat runs would not necessarily make them cake to solve. This would allow newbies more of a chance to participate as well.

I seriously don't understand the appeal of being able to literally waltz through a dungeon. I would say "oh well, they can play it that way if they want", but I hesitate to take that position because it seems to be negatively impacting enjoyment of the game for others.

I agree on the variable solutions. I don't think it would be that difficult to have the answer to SOME of the puzzles different each day. So when someone simply walks up to the blue mushroom on Friday and says she is taking a bite... she might just drop dead.

I always kind of wondered about this myself. Why don't some puzzles change answers day to day?

Fiddy wrote: I wonder if there is any possibility Jeff could allow more full runs to be pre-sold?

Because TD doesn't sell tickets--Gen Con does--the real question is, would Gen Con allow more tickets to be pre-sold.

I think you know what the answer is...

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My (mostly) tongue-in-cheek solution to those greedy bastard veterans and their fithy tokens is:
Let folks go to the TD store and by a "Token-Only Run". For the price of a dungeon run, they get a random 10-pack of tokens and Treasure Chips equal to whatever they would be entitled to if they went on a run and got all three treasure stamps. That way we can keep those always rotten veterans away from the always wonderful newbie players.

Sarcasm aside, there will always be a-holes. As much as we would love to be able to filter them out, we can't. It really irks me when "veterans" automatically get lumped into the dickweed group and newbies are assumed to be delightful angels. I personally know some truly awesome vets who bend over backwards to ensure newbies have a good time. We've seen some of them post in this thread. Let us not discount their efforts by assuming that experiance and/or tokenaholism = jerk.

Cavor wrote: All I'm trying to say is put yourself in the other person's shoes:

New player, Alright a monster, let's slide one, ohhh i hit the 17, that has to be good right? ... and the DM tells me I miss.

The vet: slides an 8 missing the silhouette by 1 foot, still hits. Huh?

.

So something similar happened to me this year. Not a new player but same basic scenario. Since I could hit on a 8 or whatever low number my new goal was to bump the other slider into a hit every time. It was super fun and all together a new challenge.

valetutto wrote:

Cavor wrote: All I'm trying to say is put yourself in the other person's shoes:

New player, Alright a monster, let's slide one, ohhh i hit the 17, that has to be good right? ... and the DM tells me I miss.

The vet: slides an 8 missing the silhouette by 1 foot, still hits. Huh?

.

So something similar happened to me this year. Not a new player but same basic scenario. Since I could hit on a 8 or whatever low number my new goal was to bump the other slider into a hit every time. It was super fun and all together a new challenge.

So, I had a run with many less-equipped players. Also, my rogue friend and I had already run the combat side. We played hardcore so we could keep everyone alive, and we had the rogue use flanking while I slid last to bump (and probably still hit with my +16. If the party was having trouble, the rogue could sneak and I could go for the 19-crit.

That was the plan, BUT so many of the combats basically negated my bonuses. All that webbing = auto-miss, not in the outline = miss, 50% miss chance, immune to ranged. While that makes things more interesting for me in combat, it led to us either losing to time or we killed the monster too quickly because we knew not to hold back.

The reason this comes up every year and the reason we don't end up solving it is because by the very nature of True Dungeon, there really isn't a win-win solution. No matter which one(s) of the ideas presented here are pursued, there is a negative effect for a larger group than the currently impacted group.

Comments on the proposals:

We've already tried designated runs and with the mad grab of TD tickets when they go live, you aren't going to force the right people into the right slots. It simply isn't going to happen. The demand is too high.

Forced capping stats is just going to frustrate the veteran who ended up on a mixed run out of necessity and if anything is more likely to sour their mood and interaction with the newer player.

We actually had a beginner dungeon years back, but as it was a unique, some veterans still went through it. It provided only a single token, if I recall, and more of the emphasis was on interacting with the environment (navigating through a hall of wires without touching one, etc. Space and resources are a major issue with this solution. We've finally reached a point where the entrance sets the mood and begins the immersion. To make room for even a four room dungeon would decrease a significant amount of space for the event. And there is still no guarantee that a jerk wouldn't end up on the run anyway.

Expecting new players to organize via the forum, buy entire slots or do anything that requires planning ahead is doomed to failure. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, new players aren't going to know the issues until they experience them and by then it is too late.

Root Causes:

With any problem, you have to drill down to the root causes of the issue and determine what can be done to improve the outcomes. Anything else are mere band aids and will provide marginal (if any) benefit.

The root causes (from what I've seen) are:

- Players who do not care about overall team's enjoyment (this can be veteran or new player)
- The ever increasing rift between starter pack and full build

Unless we can find a reliable way of incentivizing people for working as a full team, the first one is going to be nearly impossible. TD has no way of weeding out people who are not good team players and there is no way to reliably segregate non team players from good team players.

The rift is a two edged sword. The cows are already out of the barn so to speak in that the rift is a chasm already. We can try not to widen the gap in the 2016 build, but I'm not sure how we can creatively bridge the gap outside of the generosity some veterans show today by loaning out equipment for the run (which has its own share of issues, but does provide for a more balanced gameplay). Last year we talked a bit about trying creative scaling based on the mix of the team, but that would add a lot more math to the already math-heavy job of the DM. I guess one alternative would be for the coach to upscale the newer player's stats to put them on a more even footing, but that could upset some veterans who had to purchase tokens to gain that same level of play.

These issues are somewhat inherent in a collectible style game with as large of a player base as TD has. One thing I would recommend is that we don't end up impacting 95+% of our players to fix what is probably a 5% or less issue.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'll just say this: people tend to self-segregate. Just look at any high school lunch room.

We are focusing on protecting the newbies' first experience, but you could equally argue the vets are being penalized from blowing through the dungeon at Mach 2 by slowpoke newbies.

The difference is, vets know how to get around their "problem." Newbies don't. So we either tell them to "suck it up" if a turbo group steamrolls them, or we make it easy for them to find a group where they are more comfortable with others of their experience level if they want to.

So, newbie run: no XP, or fewer rooms, or max +1 treasure bonus, or... something. It doesn't exclude vets, but makes it much less attractive to people who are in it for something other than fun.

Or we can have this exact same discussion next year, as we do every year the week after GenCon, and hope the problem magically fixes itself without doing anything about it.

It hasn't worked the last five years I've seen this same thread, but maybe next year will be different.

Could happen.

we wouldnt be having the discussion if people that have run the dungeon multiple times, just have some self control and wait until final 2 minutes before helping on puzzles...or sliding last in combat

What Laz said.

Amorgen said:
The root causes (from what I've seen) are:
- Players who do not care about overall team's enjoyment (this can be veteran or new player)

I agree with Laz, to a point. Vets who are jerks are a problem. Those vets who have been saying they are considerate and cool, I'll concede that YOU are one of the good vets, and are a resource to be valued, not beat up for having cool toys. But just saying jerks shouldn't be jerks won't fix anything, anymore than a "coexist" bumper sticker will solve terrorism.

But from the description people are giving, some of these jerks don't even care about their own enjoyment either. They just want to blow through every room as quickly as possible. They aren't there to play, and it's an expensive way to stand around in the dark chatting with your friend waiting for the horns to blow. It's like the whole thing is a chore. So why ARE they there? That's my question, and another root. Maybe one that can be addressed easily.

And I agree, it should go without saying that not all vets are jerks, and not all jerks are vets.

Brad Mortensen wrote: But from the description people are giving, some of these jerks don't even care about their own enjoyment either. They just want to blow through every room as quickly as possible. They aren't there to play, and it's an expensive way to stand around in the dark chatting with your friend waiting for the horns to blow. It's like the whole thing is a chore. So why ARE they there? That's my question, and another root. Maybe one that can be addressed easily.

I wonder if it is for the treasure? That's my concern.

Brad Mortensen wrote: And I agree, it should go without saying that not all vets are jerks, and not all jerks are vets.

Important to remember, I'd like to think I'm a non-jerk veteran

Amorgen Burke wrote: The root causes (from what I've seen) are:

- Players who do not care about overall team's enjoyment (this can be veteran or new player)

Unless we can find a reliable way of incentivizing people for working as a full team, the first one is going to be nearly impossible. TD has no way of weeding out people who are not good team players and there is no way to reliably segregate non team players from good team players.

It would be neat if we could make sure more teamwork was required in general. Some rooms are already better at that than others.

Amorgen Burke wrote: - The ever increasing rift between starter pack and full build

I think this will continue but should be coupled with an ever-increasing rift between Normal and Nightmare (or new higher levels).

Druegar wrote: Let folks go to the TD store and by a "Token-Only Run". For the price of a dungeon run, they get a random 10-pack of tokens and Treasure Chips equal to whatever they would be entitled to if they went on a run and got all three treasure stamps.

It has been suggested before and as I recall there was some resistance but I see this as a good idea. There are definitely some people that go on multiple runs and/or ghost characters just to get more treasure, it seems win/win to allow them to just buy the loot and sell the run to somebody else.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Druegar wrote: Let folks go to the TD store and by a "Token-Only Run". For the price of a dungeon run, they get a random 10-pack of tokens and Treasure Chips equal to whatever they would be entitled to if they went on a run and got all three treasure stamps.

It has been suggested before and as I recall there was some resistance but I see this as a good idea. There are definitely some people that go on multiple runs and/or ghost characters just to get more treasure, it seems win/win to allow them to just buy the loot and sell the run to somebody else.

Its been suggested before but TD could always look at the idea of allowing people to ghost runless slots. ie buying treasure chips/completion tokens/buttons etc. No need to actually fill a slot on a real run. That said most of the people I saw ghost this year weren't doing it so much to find treasure so much as since they couldn't find players that would fit the group.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Druegar wrote: Let folks go to the TD store and by a "Token-Only Run". For the price of a dungeon run, they get a random 10-pack of tokens and Treasure Chips equal to whatever they would be entitled to if they went on a run and got all three treasure stamps.

It has been suggested before and as I recall there was some resistance but I see this as a good idea. There are definitely some people that go on multiple runs and/or ghost characters just to get more treasure, it seems win/win to allow them to just buy the loot and sell the run to somebody else.

On the surface this seems like a good idea to me, but I'm not sure of the scale of the problem. How many slots on how many runs are taken up strictly by ghost characters of people just looking for additional tokens? I know I've never done it nor have I ever been with someone that did that. Does it add up to a couple of dozen slots, or hundreds?