TOPIC: I think we have a problem

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'll just say this: people tend to self-segregate. Just look at any high school lunch room.

We are focusing on protecting the newbies' first experience, but you could equally argue the vets are being penalized from blowing through the dungeon at Mach 2 by slowpoke newbies.

The difference is, vets know how to get around their "problem." Newbies don't. So we either tell them to "suck it up" if a turbo group steamrolls them, or we make it easy for them to find a group where they are more comfortable with others of their experience level if they want to.

So, newbie run: no XP, or fewer rooms, or max +1 treasure bonus, or... something. It doesn't exclude vets, but makes it much less attractive to people who are in it for something other than fun.

Or we can have this exact same discussion next year, as we do every year the week after GenCon, and hope the problem magically fixes itself without doing anything about it.

It hasn't worked the last five years I've seen this same thread, but maybe next year will be different.

Could happen.

we wouldnt be having the discussion if people that have run the dungeon multiple times, just have some self control and wait until final 2 minutes before helping on puzzles...or sliding last in combat

I don't disagree. My only point is, they don't. And just talking about it, as we have for a decade, won't help. Otherwise, they'd have stopped acting like jerks years ago.

Myself and a friend actually ran a run with MasterEd Friday night 7:14 Sable Combat and we did it on Normal since the rest of the group was farily new to TD. I ran Barbarian (+14 hit/+34 damage), my friend played Paladin with a make shift 2hd build (+7 hit /+ 27 Damage) and Ed was playing the Druid. Since we had already ran the run earlier we let the new players do everything with Ed giving minor clues to the puzzles and on the combat myself and my paladin friend would wait 2-3 combat turns before we stepped in to help. Everyone seemed like they were having a good time and it gave them a chance to play the game without having Vets ruining their experience. The only time we stepped in early was in the final room when the cleric died by failing his saving throw and got sucked into the void.

Chuck Hurst wrote: Myself and a friend actually ran a run with MasterEd Friday night 7:14 Sable Combat and we did it on Normal since the rest of the group was farily new to TD. I ran Barbarian (+14 hit/+34 damage), my friend played Paladin with a make shift 2hd build (+7 hit /+ 27 Damage) and Ed was playing the Druid. Since we had already ran the run earlier we let the new players do everything with Ed giving minor clues to the puzzles and on the combat myself and my paladin friend would wait 2-3 combat turns before we stepped in to help. Everyone seemed like they were having a good time and it gave them a chance to play the game without having Vets ruining their experience. The only time we stepped in early was in the final room when the cleric died by failing his saving throw and got sucked into the void.

There are some super-awesome vets. I don't disagree with that either.

I think my in-laws are driving me insane, which was just a short walk for me anyway, so I'll try to avoid commenting again until a few days after they go home.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

balthasar wrote: I would like to see something similar to the 4 room retro dungeon that was done at WYC 2 years ago. If you limited it to starter packs, did not offer XP/badges, and limited treasure to 2 chips (one combat, one puzzle), we might give new/newer players a chance to whet their appetite. Yes, vets would still try and grab tickets, but I would like to think they would settle for one run through that dungeon and leave room for people to catch the bug so many of use enjoy. The ticket price would be lower, as would the number of volunteers. As for space, they fit that dungeon into a tight spot, so I would like to think it could be done in the same hall as the 4 dungeons are built.

If the rooms are "encores" from the previous years, it would significantly reduce the demand from vets. I for one would have zero desire to do it. Go 2008 or earlier, though, and I'd want to see some of what I missed.

Even if you had older runs, this would be a good thing. Veterans might free up some regular slots when taking a retro slot

Thanks for the replies guys,

They seem to range from:

1. There is no problem, stat cap is silly
2. Having new player only runs
3. Build a new player only dungeon / event
4. A stat cap would be fine
5. New players should use forums
6. Have Veteran sponsored runs

A few of these are good workable ideas.

I think some people here misunderstood my original post. The players I spoke to were upset that the vet “Stepped in to save the day” at all. They wanted to succeed or fail based on their own merit.

Cavor wrote:
I think some people here misunderstood my original post. The players I spoke to were upset that the vet “Stepped in to save the day” at all. They wanted to succeed or fail based on their own merit.

Would they not also have gotten mad if it was just some random person that stepped in to save the day at the last minuet?

Just wondering for real.

Lets say there is someone who is just really good at puzzles and figures out the solution really quickly and solves it....wouldn't they get just as much of a blame? Or if someone was just naturally good at sliding even though it was their first or second time.


I don't doubt people get mad and upset, I don't doubt there are some folks that cause problems but I also think some folks are just going to find something to get upset about.


I guess at its core, there are just folks out there that want to feel they earned it and if someone solves it or beats it "for them" they didn't earn it and they get mad.

Cavor wrote: I think some people here misunderstood my original post. The players I spoke to were upset that the vet “Stepped in to save the day” at all. They wanted to succeed or fail based on their own merit.

Uh, if they were going to fail on their own and the vet stepped in to save the day, it would be easy enough to choose to take push/failure damage (since you manage your own HP) or to decline the treasure earned.

Right?

valetutto wrote: Lets say there is someone who is just really good at puzzles and figures out the solution really quickly and solves it....wouldn't they get just as much of a blame? Or if someone was just naturally good at sliding even though it was their first or second time.

Reminds me of the year a puzzle room had a projector showing scrambled letters and you had to figure out the various words it spelled.

One member of my party (CmdrWorf, if I recall correctly), was an avid Jumble solver so he was solving each word puzzle rapid fire, one right after another!

Incognito wrote:

valetutto wrote: Lets say there is someone who is just really good at puzzles and figures out the solution really quickly and solves it....wouldn't they get just as much of a blame? Or if someone was just naturally good at sliding even though it was their first or second time.

Reminds me of the year a puzzle room had a projector showing scrambled letters and you had to figure out the various words it spelled.

One member of my party (CmdrWorf, if I recall correctly), was an avid Jumble solver so he was solving each word puzzle rapid fire, one right after another!

I remember that run..... And yeah, same effect as someone knowing the answers.

All I'm trying to say is put yourself in the other person's shoes:

New player, Alright a monster, let's slide one, ohhh i hit the 17, that has to be good right? ... and the DM tells me I miss.

The vet: slides an 8 missing the silhouette by 1 foot, still hits. Huh?

New player, Alright a puzzle, lets see this goes in here read that wall thingy, what's the "T" on the wall mean? that part of the puzzle?

The vet gives hints and right before horn steps in and solves the puzzle.

New player: Hey! He has obviously done this before. Why am I even here? I spent 52$ for this?

Remember we are talking about the "Perception" of the new player, which has nothing to do with the actual rules or facts.

The first year I played, I pulled a bunch of monster bits and said, meh and threw them in the garbage, stupid, but I didn't know any better.

I felt pretty useless on all my runs this year, and I'm mostly purple/relic build.

I can't imagine how miffed newbies must have been.

Personally, I think the explosion of tokens and token slots is a major source of the problem. People always defend the tokens and token economy as major contributors to the funding which brings True Dungeon to the level that it is, but I think it obvious that the power creep is uncontrollable.

And to those who think the power creep hasn't been too bad, I say this: You can't measure creep simply by comparing similar slots and stats over the years. Instead, consider the comparison of a player who has been collecting for a decade versus a newbie who has nothing more than their single starting baggie. "Creep" doesn't even begin to describe the stratospheric difference.

Overall knowledge of character abilities and synergies, combat tactics, memorized leaves/planes/beads, and experience with sliding should be more than enough to give experienced players a big edge. They don't need the equivalent of +10 character level in magic items on top of that.

And I think it should be possible to design puzzles with variable solutions, so that repeat runs would not necessarily make them cake to solve. This would allow newbies more of a chance to participate as well.

I seriously don't understand the appeal of being able to literally waltz through a dungeon. I would say "oh well, they can play it that way if they want", but I hesitate to take that position because it seems to be negatively impacting enjoyment of the game for others.

Garrison wrote: I felt pretty useless on all my runs this year, and I'm mostly purple/relic build.

I can't imagine how miffed newbies must have been.

And I think it should be possible to design puzzles with variable solutions, so that repeat runs would not necessarily make them cake to solve. This would allow newbies more of a chance to participate as well.

I seriously don't understand the appeal of being able to literally waltz through a dungeon. I would say "oh well, they can play it that way if they want", but I hesitate to take that position because it seems to be negatively impacting enjoyment of the game for others.

I agree on the variable solutions. I don't think it would be that difficult to have the answer to SOME of the puzzles different each day. So when someone simply walks up to the blue mushroom on Friday and says she is taking a bite... she might just drop dead.