TOPIC: I think we have a problem

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: by vets taking up more slots...it does drive demand up...like the VIG badges

Absolutely, but I tried to word it in a non-confrontational manner to be clear that I meant no disrespect. It's only 'bad' in the sense that it reduces the supply while the demand is potentially going up, and something has to give eventually.

According to Gencon, over 61,000 unique attendees came, and while obviously TD won't appeal to all of them, it does mean that, what, less than 1 in 8 could have attended even if they all wanted to go.

If the attendance keeps going up and TD's popularity remains strong or grows as well, that could become 1 in 9, or 1 in 10, especially with said groups/individuals wanting to run more and more.

As I'm new, I'm trying not to make definitive statements without experience, but it seems like a situation to address eventually within the structures available. Just spitballing here, as it were.

Matthew Naikelis wrote: Just to add to the newbie only adventures idea, make is so treasure increasing tokens don't work at all. This should cause all the loot lovers to stay away.

So those new players that have a Lenses of Fortune (+1 treasure) or lucky ones having Amulet of Treasure Finding from a PyP (+4) wouldn't get any benefit?

If you went this way then I would suggest instead of saying they don't work but cap them.

Ed

I believe someone mentioned perhaps capping it at +1 treasure, allowing someone lucky to be able to get a bonus (I'd love to snag a Lenses of Fortune token, but shipping to the frozen wastes for a couple of tokens (or even one) is prohibitively expensive at the shops I've checked).

Some measure of giving diminishing returns to, ah, incentivize the people who are decked out to not snag the Beginner spots, though I know that negative reinforcement is something to be used carefully.

I would like to see something similar to the 4 room retro dungeon that was done at WYC 2 years ago. If you limited it to starter packs, did not offer XP/badges, and limited treasure to 2 chips (one combat, one puzzle), we might give new/newer players a chance to whet their appetite. Yes, vets would still try and grab tickets, but I would like to think they would settle for one run through that dungeon and leave room for people to catch the bug so many of use enjoy. The ticket price would be lower, as would the number of volunteers. As for space, they fit that dungeon into a tight spot, so I would like to think it could be done in the same hall as the 4 dungeons are built.

I admit that as the thread grows I'm skimming through many of the comments, but I really don't think veterans taking up multiple slots is the main issue. It may be AN issue (I'm not sure), but I think making sure new players have a positive experience is the primary goal. I'm also not convinced that having a veteran player in a group of new players by itself makes it negative. In fact, I think it can enhance the experience. I think the problem is those veteran players who don't seem to care about the new player experience. I think they are the minority, but obviously there are enough of them to make it an issue.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

Dave wrote: I admit that as the thread grows I'm skimming through many of the comments, but I really don't think veterans taking up multiple slots is the main issue. It may be AN issue (I'm not sure), but I think making sure new players have a positive experience is the primary goal. I'm also not convinced that having a veteran player in a group of new players by itself makes it negative. In fact, I think it can enhance the experience. I think the problem is those veteran players who don't seem to care about the new player experience. I think they are the minority, but obviously there are enough of them to make it an issue.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

Exactly. So why does an epic player pay $52 to spend 11 of every 12 minutes standing around? (I haven't exactly kept my hypothesis secret.)

But take away that reason, and you eliminate them from the equation, and you reduce the bad experiences for newbies.

balthasar wrote: I would like to see something similar to the 4 room retro dungeon that was done at WYC 2 years ago. If you limited it to starter packs, did not offer XP/badges, and limited treasure to 2 chips (one combat, one puzzle), we might give new/newer players a chance to whet their appetite. Yes, vets would still try and grab tickets, but I would like to think they would settle for one run through that dungeon and leave room for people to catch the bug so many of use enjoy. The ticket price would be lower, as would the number of volunteers. As for space, they fit that dungeon into a tight spot, so I would like to think it could be done in the same hall as the 4 dungeons are built.

If the rooms are "encores" from the previous years, it would significantly reduce the demand from vets. I for one would have zero desire to do it. Go 2008 or earlier, though, and I'd want to see some of what I missed.

I strongly disagree with the thought of segregation. As a Noobie player gone novice. I cannot emphasize enough that the reason I came back to TD each year was to mingle and hopefully play with all of you, the veterans. The veterans make the game what it is, you are the unscripted NPC's the community of the game, you are the tavern, the seasoned warriors, the wise traveler, and the jesters. You are TD.

Removing you from the game is as wrong as removing tokens. The game is not the problem. Stat caps and token bans are absurd. As it is half the tokens have an asterisk (e.g magic spiders).


Mixed parties are what you make of them, as patrons to the game it is our responsibility to help build the ambiance, and I believe we do this well. We wear costumes setup trade posts, we welcome people, and always loan out excess gear.


There will always be a sour apple.
I have yet to taste one.

Endearingly
-THOT

Having a pair of generous vets in our run certainly wasn't a bad thing in and of itself. They were both awesome, friendly, and hooked us up with some gear to aid us in the adventure without asking for anything in return.

I've seen references to some 'problems' arising when you have vets that trivialize encounters, or have literally already done the dungeon and just drag people along with the answers/tricked out gear, but there's only so much that can be done to prevent people from being jerks.

As a new player, I certainly wouldn't say I didn't want to have vets around. But it's not a meshing of experience levels and interests/goals that necessarily lines up natively either, from some of the other chatter I'm hearing (eg; people feeling the need to buy up entire runs to ensure things play out as they wish).

Edit:.... and I think I ran with Link here on that adventure. O.O

HI FROM THE INTERNET! (assuming you were in the Normal Puzzle Underdark at 9:37pm on Saturday)

True hero of time (THOT) wrote: I strongly disagree with the thought of segregation. As a Noobie player gone novice. I cannot emphasize enough that the reason I came back to TD each year was to mingle and hopefully play with all of you, the veterans. The veterans make the game what it is, you are the unscripted NPC's the community of the game, you are the tavern, the seasoned warriors, the wise traveler, and the jesters. You are TD.

Removing you from the game is as wrong as removing tokens. The game is not the problem. Stat caps and token bans are absurd. As it is half the tokens have an asterisk (e.g magic spiders).


Mixed parties are what you make of them, as patrons to the game it is our responsibility to help build the ambiance, and I believe we do this well. We wear costumes setup trade posts, we welcome people, and always loan out excess gear.


There will always be a sour apple.
I have yet to taste one.

Endearingly
-THOT

This post does touch on a different perspective to consider: If it weren't for the veteran players and the patrons who buy lots and lots and lots of tokens... TD wouldn't even exist for new players to try at all. So, if we take away runs and make them "beginner only" aren't we penalizing the veteran and patron players who make TD possible by giving them fewer runs to go on? It's tough to find a balance....

It seems there is no ideal solution, and as just pointed there will always be bad apples. When I have been on runs with newbies, I have always acted responsibly, helped them only when needed and tried to add to a positive experience for them. That's really all anyone can ask of veteran players when on runs with newbies. I think most veterans do this and 99% of the time there are no problems. The 1% are bad apples, and ANY gaming community has them, whether that be D&D or Shadowrun or board games or card games... or any other gaming community. All we can do as veteran or patron players is try our best to make things better for all and try to make it a positive experience for all.

I'll just say this: people tend to self-segregate. Just look at any high school lunch room.

We are focusing on protecting the newbies' first experience, but you could equally argue the vets are being penalized from blowing through the dungeon at Mach 2 by slowpoke newbies.

The difference is, vets know how to get around their "problem." Newbies don't. So we either tell them to "suck it up" if a turbo group steamrolls them, or we make it easy for them to find a group where they are more comfortable with others of their experience level if they want to.

So, newbie run: no XP, or fewer rooms, or max +1 treasure bonus, or... something. It doesn't exclude vets, but makes it much less attractive to people who are in it for something other than fun.

Or we can have this exact same discussion next year, as we do every year the week after GenCon, and hope the problem magically fixes itself without doing anything about it.

It hasn't worked the last five years I've seen this same thread, but maybe next year will be different.

Could happen.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'll just say this: people tend to self-segregate. Just look at any high school lunch room.

We are focusing on protecting the newbies' first experience, but you could equally argue the vets are being penalized from blowing through the dungeon at Mach 2 by slowpoke newbies.

The difference is, vets know how to get around their "problem." Newbies don't. So we either tell them to "suck it up" if a turbo group steamrolls them, or we make it easy for them to find a group where they are more comfortable with others of their experience level if they want to.

So, newbie run: no XP, or fewer rooms, or max +1 treasure bonus, or... something. It doesn't exclude vets, but makes it much less attractive to people who are in it for something other than fun.

Or we can have this exact same discussion next year, as we do every year the week after GenCon, and hope the problem magically fixes itself without doing anything about it.

It hasn't worked the last five years I've seen this same thread, but maybe next year will be different.

Could happen.

we wouldnt be having the discussion if people that have run the dungeon multiple times, just have some self control and wait until final 2 minutes before helping on puzzles...or sliding last in combat