TOPIC: I think we have a problem

Dave wrote: One friend said the cleric in their group refused to heal anyone other than his friends. As a result her husband died in room 6, her daughter was in near tears when she got to 1 hp and was refused healing and the entire party died in room 7.

My very first run (in 2006) was like this, with the Cleric only healing his friends.

Fortunately, I persevered. Of course the legacy of that experience lives on in that I strongly prefer to play Cleric/Druid/Paladin myself, so I do not have to rely on others for healing.

Rebeg wrote: Add a new special "Beginners" run. Make it say 6 rooms. Half puzzle, half combat. No other variance. Players who complete it get ONE treasure pull. No treasure stamps in the rooms. Treasure pulling tokens will not generate extra treasure pulls doing a "Beginners" run. Monsters are weaker in strength. Almost Kobald'ish. Puzzles are challenging, maybe a rehash of one from a few years ago. Charge the new players say $10 - $20 less. Doing this should discourage the power players since their treasure pulls will be eliminated and any real challenge in the fights too easy.

Say we still need a little more room, a suggestion to help get True tavern back. Move say the TD store out to say across the street back to the Marriott. Get a smallish board room. Set up True tavern there with the store and the Player vs Player tables. I'm not that out of shape to walk across the street to enjoy True Tavern, and partake in the fun there too.

If Jeff was inclined to do this AND could find the room then I think it would be an incredible way to attract new players.

Another problem we have (besides the OP) is honestly how many runs the experienced players burn. I'm guilty too, I went on 4 runs (not counting GT and Grind), and others went on many more than that. I understand the enthusiasm from experienced players but it burns up slots that newer players could have used.

Being a part-time volunteer this year helped a lot, it really scratched my TD itch while not burning up as many tickets AND helping TD out.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Rebeg wrote: Add a new special "Beginners" run. Make it say 6 rooms. Half puzzle, half combat. No other variance. Players who complete it get ONE treasure pull. No treasure stamps in the rooms. Treasure pulling tokens will not generate extra treasure pulls doing a "Beginners" run. Monsters are weaker in strength. Almost Kobald'ish. Puzzles are challenging, maybe a rehash of one from a few years ago. Charge the new players say $10 - $20 less. Doing this should discourage the power players since their treasure pulls will be eliminated and any real challenge in the fights too easy.

Say we still need a little more room, a suggestion to help get True tavern back. Move say the TD store out to say across the street back to the Marriott. Get a smallish board room. Set up True tavern there with the store and the Player vs Player tables. I'm not that out of shape to walk across the street to enjoy True Tavern, and partake in the fun there too.

If Jeff was inclined to do this AND could find the room then I think it would be an incredible way to attract new players.

Another problem we have (besides the OP) is honestly how many runs the experienced players burn. I'm guilty too, I went on 4 runs (not counting GT and Grind), and others went on many more than that. I understand the enthusiasm from experienced players but it burns up slots that newer players could have used.

Being a part-time volunteer this year helped a lot, it really scratched my TD itch while not burning up as many tickets AND helping TD out.

Going on as many runs as you want to seems okay to me, but I'm on the fence about people ghosting runs, even if it is just for the challenge of it. If I do 8 runs, 72 other people get to play. I'm spending $416. If I buy out a run to solo it (or duo, etc), I'm spending $520 and 9 people don't get to play. True Dungeon doesn't care - a ticket sold is a ticket sold to Jeff, so long as it's turned in.

I think the idea of potentially labeling some of the runs "Beginner" may help this a bit.
The experienced players know to stay away, and a new player can't stumble into something not meant for them and potentially "ruin" the experience of the more invested players.
While I haven't been doing this nearly as long as most of you, I fully realize the value of having a mid range secondary build for one of those classes a newbie might not gravitate towards.
This lets me fill a slot in these cases, help the party and still play a challenging adventure.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

balthasar wrote: We will always have new players and regulars playing mixed in parties. I think we just need to emphasize here on the forums that we all need to treat the new players we share runs with as best we can. The game needs fresh blood to stay alive, so making sure they enjoy the runs is imperative. If veteran players don't want to do this, they should be the ones buying out runs.

as a coach i try to stress that as well before they go off to training...all we can do is keep trying

Yes we should keep trying, I agree.

But I don't agree it is all we can do.

I like the suggestion (Brad's) of dedicated newbie runs. Limiting the treasure would definitely keep veterans out, but personally I'd like to be able to attend a newbie run now and again, but am not paying $52 for a ticket if I can't get max treasure. In other words, I like the idea of veteran players sometimes being on them as well, or at least having the option.

To suggest an alternative idea: the "Beginner" runs are marked as such when you buy tickets, anybody can join them, but they are specifically: Normal or Non-Lethal difficulty (based on party decision), no token higher than a Rare rarity may be used except treasure-enhancers. Now veterans can join and still get treasure, however I don't see them playing these runs JUST to get treasure.

But I'm not opposed to the idea of the newbie runs limiting treasure pulls to 4 max, it just means that I won't be on them. Arguably since there are some percentage of veterans out there that provide bad experiences for newbies perhaps this is best.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

balthasar wrote: We will always have new players and regulars playing mixed in parties. I think we just need to emphasize here on the forums that we all need to treat the new players we share runs with as best we can. The game needs fresh blood to stay alive, so making sure they enjoy the runs is imperative. If veteran players don't want to do this, they should be the ones buying out runs.

as a coach i try to stress that as well before they go off to training...all we can do is keep trying

Yes we should keep trying, I agree.

But I don't agree it is all we can do.

I like the suggestion (Brad's) of dedicated newbie runs. Limiting the treasure would definitely keep veterans out, but personally I'd like to be able to attend a newbie run now and again, but am not paying $52 for a ticket if I can't get max treasure. In other words, I like the idea of veteran players sometimes being on them as well, or at least having the option.

To suggest an alternative idea: the "Beginner" runs are marked as such when you buy tickets, anybody can join them, but they are specifically: Normal or Non-Lethal difficulty (based on party decision), no token higher than a Rare rarity may be used except treasure-enhancers. Now veterans can join and still get treasure, however I don't see them playing these runs JUST to get treasure.

But I'm not opposed to the idea of the newbie runs limiting treasure pulls to 4 max, it just means that I won't be on them. Arguably since there are some percentage of veterans out there that provide bad experiences for newbies perhaps this is best.

yes all we can do is keep trying...once we stop trying that is the issue...either new ideas..more people (DMs etc) reinforcing it all helps

I normally pick up a random group to run with once a year, and each time the players in there always have a great time. We tell them up front we have done these runs and we are hear to help on puzzles if requested otherwise we will follow directions or stand back. On combats I normally tell the DM that "I don't kill the monster, even if my slide would kill it" and good DMs that know me and my wife always give credit to the newer players.

I know that the main reason for this thread is experienced players that don't care about the other players experience, and with a bit of DM help it could take a bit of the bite off of this issue.

It's not hard to see that all the other players are +1-5 to hit and 2-8 to damage on bonuses, and 1 or 2 players with +14hit +20damage what is going on. That only helps for combat.

Puzzle is a lot harder as someone can just blurt out the answer, and that just comes down to how much of a d1ck someone is...

I don't believe dedicated "newbie" runs is the answer, as it will cause frustration for players that don't understand what they are and find out they can't use certain tokens or their treasure enhancers in a run that they pulled last year or spend money to get just so they could get more treasure. I am speaking of the people not on this forum that still are in the group that has one or two items in the +treasure/UR/Relic but aren't the ones like most of us that know all the things going on with TD.

There is also the issue that some veterans might argue that Beginner-only runs would simply be decreasing the pool of available runs for them to try and get.

And so maybe what should happen is that Hardcore or Nightmare-only runs should be re-introduced to counter-balance it.

If anything, since time slots could be an issue, that the Hardcore/Nightmare runs be paired with at roughly the same time as the Beginner-only runs.

So maybe a 12:00 PM Nightmare run followed by a 12:12 PM Beginner run.

Or a 12 PM Nightmare Combat run and a 12:01 PM Beginner Puzzle run.

Etc.

Just to add to the newbie only adventures idea, make is so treasure increasing tokens don't work at all. This should cause all the loot lovers to stay away.

Incognito wrote: There is also the issue that some veterans might argue that Beginner-only runs would simply be decreasing the pool of available runs for them to try and get.
.

Fewer "runs," yes, but not fewer slots, because hopefully the newbies would gravitate towards these.

So here's my question - why are veterans running so many times? If it's to have fun, that's cool. If it's to one-shot monsters and blast through puzzles just to scoop up loot and they don't care whether they spoil it for everyone else... Well, this sounds like we're having the "gold farmer" problem I bring up every time there's a push for more greed tokens, and a lot of people say will never happen.

But it is, and now we are trying to fix it without limiting loot, and IMO that's the real problem.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Another problem we have (besides the OP) is honestly how many runs the experienced players burn. I'm guilty too, I went on 4 runs (not counting GT and Grind), and others went on many more than that. I understand the enthusiasm from experienced players but it burns up slots that newer players could have used.

Heh, I just found a thread discussing people who ran 5-10+ times each. If they have the money and time to dedicate, more power to them, but it is a consideration to keep in mind, all the moreso with the other conversations happening about veterans ending up in Normal runs.

When there's only 8000 or so slots (if I'm not mistaken), having hundreds of those eaten up by a few dozen people adds up.

Make no mistake, I'm glad that TD is such a massive part of Gencon. My friends and I attended the con for the first time this year, and made a point of trying TD (Saturday 9:37pm Puzzle oriented Into the Underdark), and had finances permitted I would've loved to at least do a second run. Those dollars spent on tokens and slots are important to keep the business rolling, but it does butt up against those other issues as well (limited slots and veterans in new groups).

My group had 2 vets (who were generous with expanding our limited gear selection), along with a handful who had played a number of times, even if they weren't fully kitted out. It was an awesome time and an experience I look forward to repeating.

But if we extrapolate forward, as more people participate, and as more groups arrange themselves, those slots could dwindle as individuals and parties buy up more to feed that thirst and ensure their experience is as they like.

Obviously they can't expand beyond the time constraints of the 4 days, and having events into the wee hours of the morning adds massive amounts of personnel overhead, most of the other options that occur to me are... less than ideal. They could shorten the time per run/room, but I'm sure nobody wants that. They could bump the price again, which both makes it less noob friendly (it is quite an expense to start) even if the reduced scarcity made tickets a bit easier to come by (assuming those willing to drop half a grand on the adventure didn't just bite the bullet and toss the extra cash in anyway).

Expanding to more space and running more adventures (repeated or new) obviously has pros and cons; more runs going, but again more personnel overhead, more rooms to build, stuff to pack, volunteers needed, oversight, tech, etc.

I'd just hate to miss out on the experience on our next trip (2017 most likely, maaaaybe next year) because slots dwindled.

Just some thoughts from a newcomer.

by vets taking up more slots...it does drive demand up...like the VIG badges