TOPIC: What to do about bad DMs?

I think a survey that can be filled out onsite after the run could work, or adding a web survey for feedback. The only negative experience I has all weekend was another player who was very obviously unhappy with TD as a whole that particular day.

Finnan wrote: I think some of the bad experience came from the decision to eliminate the treasure stamp in certain situations. For the mushroom room it makes sense. But for the lava tile room, it doesn't. The only limit on that room should have been time. If the party made a few mistakes figuring out the puzzle it should have been some damage commensurate with the difficulty level. Except for boots of lava walking, you can't nerf the lava tile room like you could the mushroom room. On Normal, with a relatively inexperienced party and a DM I know is a great DM, we had a mistry, a slip off a tile and a player who stepped on prematurely (the last two after we had figured out the puzzle). As the DM's guide stated, it was three strikes you are out, which left a sour taste in the parties mouth. That one should have been can you finish it in time like many in the past have been. it sounds like the eliminate the Treasure Stamp instructions caused some confusion for some DMs as well. It's a tough job and this made it even harder for them.

In my opinion, if at least one party member made it all the way across by stepping on the correct letters (e.g. THFIF) then you should get the stamp.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Finnan wrote: I think some of the bad experience came from the decision to eliminate the treasure stamp in certain situations. For the mushroom room it makes sense. But for the lava tile room, it doesn't. The only limit on that room should have been time. If the party made a few mistakes figuring out the puzzle it should have been some damage commensurate with the difficulty level. Except for boots of lava walking, you can't nerf the lava tile room like you could the mushroom room. On Normal, with a relatively inexperienced party and a DM I know is a great DM, we had a mistry, a slip off a tile and a player who stepped on prematurely (the last two after we had figured out the puzzle). As the DM's guide stated, it was three strikes you are out, which left a sour taste in the parties mouth. That one should have been can you finish it in time like many in the past have been. it sounds like the eliminate the Treasure Stamp instructions caused some confusion for some DMs as well. It's a tough job and this made it even harder for them.

In my opinion, if at least one party member made it all the way across by stepping on the correct letters (e.g. THFIF) then you should get the stamp.

I don't get why we need a "Strike" rule in puzzles... To me, that's a design flaw in the room. Either don't make it a treasure room, or design puzzles that simply can't be brute forced. If I have 48 HP and -3 to Toxic damage, I should be able to eat all 10 mushrooms to solve the puzzle. That's a "zero fun" way to do it, but I am paying the price of quite a bit of HP in the room right before the boss. If that is how my group wants to play, why penalize us for playing that way? Also, with the lava puzzle (no idea, I didn't do it), so what if everyone has boots of lava walking? It isn't the right "solution" but it works, so why are you going to penalize a group that is wearing boots that protect them from lava? They're being penalized all dungeon by having useless boots on. Likewise, if you don't want people walking across lava, then don't make boots that walk across lava. It seems like implementing a strike system for treasure tokens just offsets design decisions that were made. I know I'm probably in the minority here, but TD should be about having fun. If it's fun for my group to bypass puzzles by using our tokens, then why penalize us for that?

Bypassing puzzles does not equal solving them.

CJ Heintz wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Finnan wrote: I think some of the bad experience came from the decision to eliminate the treasure stamp in certain situations. For the mushroom room it makes sense. But for the lava tile room, it doesn't. The only limit on that room should have been time. If the party made a few mistakes figuring out the puzzle it should have been some damage commensurate with the difficulty level. Except for boots of lava walking, you can't nerf the lava tile room like you could the mushroom room. On Normal, with a relatively inexperienced party and a DM I know is a great DM, we had a mistry, a slip off a tile and a player who stepped on prematurely (the last two after we had figured out the puzzle). As the DM's guide stated, it was three strikes you are out, which left a sour taste in the parties mouth. That one should have been can you finish it in time like many in the past have been. it sounds like the eliminate the Treasure Stamp instructions caused some confusion for some DMs as well. It's a tough job and this made it even harder for them.

In my opinion, if at least one party member made it all the way across by stepping on the correct letters (e.g. THFIF) then you should get the stamp.

I don't get why we need a "Strike" rule in puzzles... To me, that's a design flaw in the room. Either don't make it a treasure room, or design puzzles that simply can't be brute forced. If I have 48 HP and -3 to Toxic damage, I should be able to eat all 10 mushrooms to solve the puzzle. That's a "zero fun" way to do it, but I am paying the price of quite a bit of HP in the room right before the boss. If that is how my group wants to play, why penalize us for playing that way? Also, with the lava puzzle (no idea, I didn't do it), so what if everyone has boots of lava walking? It isn't the right "solution" but it works, so why are you going to penalize a group that is wearing boots that protect them from lava? They're being penalized all dungeon by having useless boots on. Likewise, if you don't want people walking across lava, then don't make boots that walk across lava. It seems like implementing a strike system for treasure tokens just offsets design decisions that were made. I know I'm probably in the minority here, but TD should be about having fun. If it's fun for my group to bypass puzzles by using our tokens, then why penalize us for that?

They aren't being penalized, they don't take any damage for being prepared for the environment. Treasure is awarded for solving the puzzle, not surviving the lava unscathed. Same for the mushroom puzzle - you can make it through the hole by trial and error while taking damage but you didn't solve the puzzle.

bpsymington wrote: Bypassing puzzles does not equal solving them.

This statement seems semantic to me. According to the story, the adventurers needed to cross the lava to pursue the Drow. That was the goal.

So walking across the lava solved the problem.

Davoruk wrote:

bpsymington wrote: Bypassing puzzles does not equal solving them.

This statement seems semantic to me. According to the story, the adventurers needed to cross the lava to pursue the Drow. That was the goal.

So walking across the lava solved the problem.

How about we just admit that treasure is a meta-reward, not in-game?

Losing a treasure stamp barely hurts a fully kitted out party, now that the Horn of Plenty/Charm of Avarice doesn't care how many stamps you have. The Ro7P bard prestige class (which is only available to dedicated True Dungeon players) allows the puzzles to be ignored entirely.

As a result, the people who care most about the treasure stamps are those who don't have treasure-enhancing gear. They're generally less experienced with True Dungeon and more likely to fail to get the stamps, which means that they don't get any treasure at all. If there are a mixture of new players and experienced players, they'll see the Charm of Avarice players pulling out 9 or 10 tokens while they get nothing, leading to hurt feelings.

I think something needs to change. I just don't know what it is.

A friend of mine on a run had an issue with a DM, and asked to speak to an AC at the end of the run. The people at the end helped get someone to speak to quickly, and everyone was polite and friendly about it.
Everything, as far as I know, was well-handled from there, and my friend was much happier after having been able to voice the concern.

Davoruk wrote:

bpsymington wrote: Bypassing puzzles does not equal solving them.

This statement seems semantic to me. According to the story, the adventurers needed to cross the lava to pursue the Drow. That was the goal.

So walking across the lava solved the problem.

The story goal was to cross the lava river. The treasure goal was to solve the puzzle.

bpsymington wrote:

Davoruk wrote:

bpsymington wrote: Bypassing puzzles does not equal solving them.

This statement seems semantic to me. According to the story, the adventurers needed to cross the lava to pursue the Drow. That was the goal.

So walking across the lava solved the problem.

The story goal was to cross the lava river. The treasure goal was to solve the puzzle.[/quote}

What a ridiculous piece of rationalization. Talk about meta-gaming. How is this handled in the training room? “Welcome to True Dungeon where we pride ourselves on immersion. Except in puzzle rooms. Just ignore the story line and try and find the solution that the room designer wants you to find. Tokens are pointless and creativity is squashed. Everything else besides the one true solution will be denied because tokens exist. Oh and btw way if you want more tokens you can buy them at the store.”

The moment you create a disconnect between the story and the puzzles you make both of them irrelevant.

Davoruk wrote:

bpsymington wrote: The story goal was to cross the lava river. The treasure goal was to solve the puzzle.[/quote}

What a ridiculous piece of rationalization. Talk about meta-gaming. How is this handled in the training room? “Welcome to True Dungeon where we pride ourselves on immersion. Except in puzzle rooms. Just ignore the story line and try and find the solution that the room designer wants you to find. Tokens are pointless and creativity is squashed. Everything else besides the one true solution will be denied because tokens exist. Oh and btw way if you want more tokens you can buy them at the store.”

The moment you create a disconnect between the story and the puzzles you make both of them irrelevant.

I don't know. It kind of reminds me of plenty of RPG computer/video games where taking a shortcut/bypass means you don't spend the time to explore an area that may contain monster. Or skipping a monster fight means you don't get the treasure the monster is carrying.