TOPIC: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016?

kurtreznor wrote:
Bard (5th) - remove Soothe Wounds, add 'Mimic': cast any spell that was just cast by another spellcaster (including the monster on its last turn).


going to bed now, more ideas to come later.

Cool idea but why give up the Bards current best and only useful spell.

kurtreznor wrote: Barbarian - add Double STR bonus to damage when using a 2-handed melee weapon

Barbarian (5th) - add 'angry throw': once per combat may throw melee weapon as a ranged attack.

Bard (5th) - remove Soothe Wounds, add 'Mimic': cast any spell that was just cast by another spellcaster (including the monster on its last turn).

Cleric (5th) Add 'Divine Surge' special ability: double the points of one of your cure or damage spells (1/game)

Druid - remove spell surge. remove polymorph damage bonus. Lower 1st and 2nd level heal spells by 1pt. ADD elemental adept: choose one; Fire= +2 damage with spells; Water= +1 to all healing spells; Earth= +3 damage while polymorph; Air= +2 to-hit while polymorph. At 5th level, these increase to Fire+3, Water+2, Earth+5, Air+3.

Druid - Remove 0-level 'Detect Poison', add 2nd box to 'Resistance'.
Reduce 'Freezing Orb' from 3 box to 2, add 'Wind Gust': another player may make melee attacks at range this combat.

going to bed now, more ideas to come later.

Wow that would make the bard pretty pumped with mimic, I would say any 2nd level or lower spell cast by others.

What about an animal companion for the ranger that gets its own slider. Perhaps something small like and eagle or falcon doing 1-4 damage and being a target that could potentially die in the dungeon.

Same thing for the druid but something a little more meatier like a wolf or a bear that does 1-6 or 1-8 damage

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

bpsymington wrote: I think the idea is that b/c the spell is inexhaustible and not marked off the card, that there needs to be a compensating limitation. A legendary or even purple wizard having an inexhaustible source of spells that would be subject to bonuses would be a bit much, IMHO.

I am always left scratching my head when this discussion comes up - disclaimer, I play Wizard.

Let's look at the relative power levels of the basic melee attack and the level 0 can't miss cantrip for a R/UC/C token Wizard and Fighter, and a "best in slot" Wizard and Fighter, with the assumption that the Wizard is granted a level 0 auto hit spell that deals 3 damage.

Fighter - R/UC/C only:

• +1 Silver Scimitar: +1 to hit and 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 7 damage - average 4
• 15 Strength: +2 to hit and damage
• Wicked Charm to get STR to 16: +1 to hit and damage
• Belt of Ogre Power: +1 to hit and damage
• Gloves of Orge Power: +1 to hit and damage
• Necklace of the Oak: +1 to hit and damage
• Bracers of Fire / Bracers of Frost: +2 to damage
• Use a Runestone at start of adventure: +1 to damage

Fighter Total: +7 to hit with an average of 13 damage, improves to +9 to hit and an average of 15 damage with Potion Bull's Strength

Wizard - R/UC/C only: I don't think there is anything at this rarity that would boost the level 0 cantrip.

Wizard Total: 3 damage, auto hits

I would note that the Fighter is subject to "melee hosing" that happens in some rooms, and the Wizard is subject monsters with spell resistance, magical silence, and immunity or resistance to certain damage types.

From a min-maxing / power gaming perspective I think it's pretty tough to argue that the Fighter isn't more capable/effective than the Wizard. Even if the Fighter misses 66% of their attacks their average damage is still higher.

Here are some builds at the high end - I'm sure I've missed a trick or two in optimizing them, but I think it's close enough for discussion:

Best in slot Fighter:

• Asher's +5 Viper Strike Fang: +5 to hit, damage: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 average: 10.5
• Charm of Heroism for Level 5, 16 native STR, enhanced with:
  • Gloves of the Brute +5 STR
  • RoSP +1 STR
  • Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength +7 STR
  • Ioun Stone Onyx Cube +2 STR
  • Stu-Pendous Pendant +3 STR
  • Wicked Charm +1 STR
  • Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere +1 STR
  • Pouch of Tulz + Potion Dwarven Dopplebock +6 STR
  Total strength bonuses +16 to hit and damage
• Bracers of Fire / Bracers of Frost: +2 to damage
• Use a Runestone at start of adventure: +1 to damage
• Ring of Frost: +2 damage
• Boots of the North Wind: +3 damage
• Draco-Lich Claw Charm: +2 damage

Best in Slot Fighter Total: +21 to hit with an average of 36.5 damage

Best in slot Wizard:

• Drake's +5 Staff of Power: +5 spell damage
• Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 spell damage
• Ring of Greater Focus: +3 spell damage
• Bracelets of the Cabal, Gloves of the Cabal, Charm of the Cabal: +1 spell damage, can cast second spell as a free action once per combat.
• Hand of Glory + Ring of Focus: +1 spell damage (alternatively put Supreme Ring of Elemental Command and RoSP here to cut through spell resistance)

Best in Slot Wizard Total: 36 damage in the first round of combat, 18 damage thereafter

Again I don't think it's easy to argue the Wizard is out of balance with the fighter. The Fighter would need to miss around half the time with a +21 to hit bonus to deal less damage than the wizard over a 4 round combat.

In the Relic level middle ground between these builds the Fighter loses +4 to hit and +4 to damage by dropping the RoSP and moving from Legendary to Relic levels on the Girdle and the Viper Strike Fang.

The Wizard loses +7 damage with the departure of Relsa's Ring and dropping the Legendary SoP to the Relic SoP.

Other Points to Consider: The Wizards bonuses also benefit their more powerful spells, whereas the Fighter is pretty much hammering away at this basic melee attack level the whole time. I haven't included Mad Evoker's Charm here because I don't think it makes sense to deal 10 to yourself to deal an additional 3 to the monster.

But you should include the MEC in your BiS calculations.

So.. +3 damage at the cost of 10 HP

*remember the MEC boosts only PRINTED BASE damage*

Lordoftherealm wrote: What about an animal companion for the ranger that gets its own slider. Perhaps something small like and eagle or falcon doing 1-4 damage and being a target that could potentially die in the dungeon.

Same thing for the druid but something a little more meatier like a wolf or a bear that does 1-6 or 1-8 damage

I don't see adding a third slider to a 2 slider class as a wise move. We already have space issues as it stands.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote: What about an animal companion for the ranger that gets its own slider. Perhaps something small like and eagle or falcon doing 1-4 damage and being a target that could potentially die in the dungeon.

Same thing for the druid but something a little more meatier like a wolf or a bear that does 1-6 or 1-8 damage

I don't see adding a third slider to a 2 slider class as a wise move. We already have space issues as it stands.

Perhaps it could be used to flank, much like a rogue can. Flipping it over and leaving it as a bumper for the ranger?

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote: What about an animal companion for the ranger that gets its own slider. Perhaps something small like and eagle or falcon doing 1-4 damage and being a target that could potentially die in the dungeon.

Same thing for the druid but something a little more meatier like a wolf or a bear that does 1-6 or 1-8 damage

I don't see adding a third slider to a 2 slider class as a wise move. We already have space issues as it stands.

Perhaps it could be used to flank, much like a rogue can. Flipping it over and leaving it as a bumper for the ranger?

If it used one of the existing 2 sliders for the Ranger sure. If it adds another slider to the board and 25 or so more to the dungeon budget to have additional sliders made I'd say no.

On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.

No, I'm sorry but if you are going to use BIS to talk about power creep and mention spell slides you have to take into account the same BIS for other classes.

It's completely viable now for melee hits to auto hit on a slide of a 2 with BIS gear, and in that instance you would also need to take into account the damage per slide min and max for that attack (which comes in at double the spells damage and isn't affected by spell resistance or elemental damage resistance like spells are)

If you want to compare like to like (again) in the discussion of GIVING WIZARDS A BASIC SPELL ATTACK I can gather up all my math on the subject of min/max damage at Legendary level showing the auto hit 3 damage against the slide damage of a fully Legendary sliding character. The numbers favor the slider, SIGNIFICANTLY.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.

No, I'm sorry but if you are going to use BIS to talk about power creep and mention spell slides you have to take into account the same BIS for other classes.

It's completely viable now for melee hits to auto hit on a slide of a 2 with BIS gear, and in that instance you would also need to take into account the damage per slide min and max for that attack (which comes in at double the spells damage and isn't affected by spell resistance or elemental damage resistance like spells are)

If you want to compare like to like (again) in the discussion of GIVING WIZARDS A BASIC SPELL ATTACK I can gather up all my math on the subject of min/max damage at Legendary level showing the auto hit 3 damage against the slide damage of a fully Legendary sliding character. The numbers favor the slider, SIGNIFICANTLY.

Enlightening thoughts for some of us as i never realize all the stacking up at higher tiers of play. For sake of argument I vote/go with the thought that an extra cantrip basic attack spell would be very useful for those not heavily equipped. How do we give something useful without bringing in all the min/max potential/downsides that most players's will never see/use? Do we consider something like an inexhaustible wand effect that can be marked on party card at coaches discretion? "this player has X effect infinitely usable if X box is checked on party card" type deal?

I'd say give the wizards a cantrip type spell, unlimited casts. Maybe we'd see more caster-wizards than melee-wizards. Sure, a BiS build could top out a 1-2 pt spell into something huge, 16 - 18 pts. But how many players are going to have the resources for that build? How many with those resources are going to be running with similarly geared players? A creature isn't going to last enough rounds at that level of play for it to matter.

This would be a good change to the bread 'n butter players who make up the majority of TD revenue at GenCon. The player who is geared only with their starter tokens and whatever they could trade for in the prep room. Otherwise once they pop their spells they're done for the adventure. Again, I'm talking about your entry level, rarely or never played TD before type of player.

Also, if you give the wizards unlimited cantrip attacks, you dont need practically every spell they have to be a damage spell. Some of the damage spells can be dropped for some utility spells since there will always be a damage spell available.