TOPIC: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Why not have something like a Guard Token that the Paladin can give to the player guarded. If the DM targets them, they show the token and the monster attacks the Paladin instead

Thats a good idea!

We should get a pickpocket token to give players when we sleight their equipment in the dark room, kinda like a rogues calling card! lol

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Why not have something like a Guard Token that the Paladin can give to the player guarded. If the DM targets them, they show the token and the monster attacks the Paladin instead

Thats a good idea!

We should get a pickpocket token to give players when we sleight their equipment in the dark room, kinda like a rogues calling card! lol

Perhaps it could have a picture of that shirt that said "I screwed the party for the shirt", sorry I am having an off day.

Some Spell Change Suggestions for Wizards

Wizard spell selection could use some overhauls.

Add INT modifier to Spell Slides
Add INT modifier to DC of spells or remove DC from spells completely

Elf Wizard Spells
Cantrip
Acid Splash (3/6 Acid) - 4 uses
Detect Magic - 2 uses
-Replace Acid Splash with Freezing Ray (AC- 12 3 Frost)
-Replace Detect Magic with Arcane Blast (2/3 Arcane)
--Removing Detect Magic allows for Detect Magic scrolls to be useful

Level 1
Alertness +10 Initiative - 1 use
Acid Ray (AC 15 - 12 Acid) - 1 use
Add INT modifier to Spell Slide
Magic Missile (8/11 Force) - 3 uses

Level 2
Cat's Grace - +4 Dex - 1 use
Invisibility - 1 use
Ray of Shock - (AC 15 - 16 Shock) - 1 use
-Remove Cat's Grace, allows scroll use
-Add Deafening Blast (8/11 Force, all targets)
-Change Invisibility to whole group, can be puzzle use

Level 3
Fireball (30 Fire Reflex DC-12 for 1/2) - 1 use
-Add INT modifier to DC
Stoneskin (ignore 5 damage all hits 1 room) - 1 use


Wizard Spells
Cantrip
Fire Ray (3/6 Fire) - 3 uses
Ray of Frost (3/6 Frost) - 3 uses
-Replace Ray of Frost with Freezing Ray (AC- 12 3 Frost)
-Replace Fire Ray with Arcane Blast (2/3 Arcane)

Level 1
Burning Hands (6/9 Fire all targets) - 1 use
Acid Ray (AC 15 - 12 Acid) - 1 use
Add INT modifier to Spell Slide
Magic Missile (8/11 Force) - 3 uses

Level 2
Bull's Strength +4 Strength - 1 use
-Remove Bull's Strength, allows scroll use
Ray of Shock - (AC 15 - 18 Shock) - 1 use
Scorching Ray - (AC 15 - 18 Fire) - 1 use
- Remove Scorching Ray, replace with
- Frozen Pulse (9/11 Cold 2 Pulses) provides non-slide spell - 2 uses

Level 3
Lesser Maze (Remove monster, 1 action, re-roll Initiative) - 1 use
Lightning Storm (30 Lightning all targets DC-12 for 1/2) - 1 use
Add INT modifier to DC

bpsymington wrote: I think the idea is that b/c the spell is inexhaustible and not marked off the card, that there needs to be a compensating limitation. A legendary or even purple wizard having an inexhaustible source of spells that would be subject to bonuses would be a bit much, IMHO.

I am always left scratching my head when this discussion comes up - disclaimer, I play Wizard.

Let's look at the relative power levels of the basic melee attack and the level 0 can't miss cantrip for a R/UC/C token Wizard and Fighter, and a "best in slot" Wizard and Fighter, with the assumption that the Wizard is granted a level 0 auto hit spell that deals 3 damage.

Fighter - R/UC/C only:

• +1 Silver Scimitar: +1 to hit and 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 7 damage - average 4
• 15 Strength: +2 to hit and damage
• Wicked Charm to get STR to 16: +1 to hit and damage
• Belt of Ogre Power: +1 to hit and damage
• Gloves of Orge Power: +1 to hit and damage
• Necklace of the Oak: +1 to hit and damage
• Bracers of Fire / Bracers of Frost: +2 to damage
• Use a Runestone at start of adventure: +1 to damage

Fighter Total: +7 to hit with an average of 13 damage, improves to +9 to hit and an average of 15 damage with Potion Bull's Strength

Wizard - R/UC/C only: I don't think there is anything at this rarity that would boost the level 0 cantrip.

Wizard Total: 3 damage, auto hits

I would note that the Fighter is subject to "melee hosing" that happens in some rooms, and the Wizard is subject monsters with spell resistance, magical silence, and immunity or resistance to certain damage types.

From a min-maxing / power gaming perspective I think it's pretty tough to argue that the Fighter isn't more capable/effective than the Wizard. Even if the Fighter misses 66% of their attacks their average damage is still higher.

Here are some builds at the high end - I'm sure I've missed a trick or two in optimizing them, but I think it's close enough for discussion:

Best in slot Fighter:

• Asher's +5 Viper Strike Fang: +5 to hit, damage: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 average: 10.5
• Charm of Heroism for Level 5, 16 native STR, enhanced with:
  • Gloves of the Brute +5 STR
  • RoSP +1 STR
  • Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength +7 STR
  • Ioun Stone Onyx Cube +2 STR
  • Stu-Pendous Pendant +3 STR
  • Wicked Charm +1 STR
  • Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere +1 STR
  • Pouch of Tulz + Potion Dwarven Dopplebock +6 STR
  Total strength bonuses +16 to hit and damage
• Bracers of Fire / Bracers of Frost: +2 to damage
• Use a Runestone at start of adventure: +1 to damage
• Ring of Frost: +2 damage
• Boots of the North Wind: +3 damage
• Draco-Lich Claw Charm: +2 damage

Best in Slot Fighter Total: +21 to hit with an average of 36.5 damage

Best in slot Wizard:

• Drake's +5 Staff of Power: +5 spell damage
• Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 spell damage
• Ring of Greater Focus: +3 spell damage
• Bracelets of the Cabal, Gloves of the Cabal, Charm of the Cabal: +1 spell damage, can cast second spell as a free action once per combat.
• Hand of Glory + Ring of Focus: +1 spell damage (alternatively put Supreme Ring of Elemental Command and RoSP here to cut through spell resistance)

Best in Slot Wizard Total: 36 damage in the first round of combat, 18 damage thereafter

Again I don't think it's easy to argue the Wizard is out of balance with the fighter. The Fighter would need to miss around half the time with a +21 to hit bonus to deal less damage than the wizard over a 4 round combat.

In the Relic level middle ground between these builds the Fighter loses +4 to hit and +4 to damage by dropping the RoSP and moving from Legendary to Relic levels on the Girdle and the Viper Strike Fang.

The Wizard loses +7 damage with the departure of Relsa's Ring and dropping the Legendary SoP to the Relic SoP.

Other Points to Consider: The Wizards bonuses also benefit their more powerful spells, whereas the Fighter is pretty much hammering away at this basic melee attack level the whole time. I haven't included Mad Evoker's Charm here because I don't think it makes sense to deal 10 to yourself to deal an additional 3 to the monster.

Don't forget the Orb of Might which would add 2 str to the fighter as a offhand, instead of a shield.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

bpsymington wrote: I think the idea is that b/c the spell is inexhaustible and not marked off the card, that there needs to be a compensating limitation. A legendary or even purple wizard having an inexhaustible source of spells that would be subject to bonuses would be a bit much, IMHO.

I am always left scratching my head when this discussion comes up - disclaimer, I play Wizard.

Let's look at the relative power levels of the basic melee attack and the level 0 can't miss cantrip for a R/UC/C token Wizard and Fighter, and a "best in slot" Wizard and Fighter, with the assumption that the Wizard is granted a level 0 auto hit spell that deals 3 damage.

Fighter - R/UC/C only:

• +1 Silver Scimitar: +1 to hit and 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 7 damage - average 4
• 15 Strength: +2 to hit and damage
• Wicked Charm to get STR to 16: +1 to hit and damage
• Belt of Ogre Power: +1 to hit and damage
• Gloves of Orge Power: +1 to hit and damage
• Necklace of the Oak: +1 to hit and damage
• Bracers of Fire / Bracers of Frost: +2 to damage
• Use a Runestone at start of adventure: +1 to damage

Fighter Total: +7 to hit with an average of 13 damage, improves to +9 to hit and an average of 15 damage with Potion Bull's Strength

Wizard - R/UC/C only: I don't think there is anything at this rarity that would boost the level 0 cantrip.

Wizard Total: 3 damage, auto hits

I would note that the Fighter is subject to "melee hosing" that happens in some rooms, and the Wizard is subject monsters with spell resistance, magical silence, and immunity or resistance to certain damage types.

From a min-maxing / power gaming perspective I think it's pretty tough to argue that the Fighter isn't more capable/effective than the Wizard. Even if the Fighter misses 66% of their attacks their average damage is still higher.

Here are some builds at the high end - I'm sure I've missed a trick or two in optimizing them, but I think it's close enough for discussion:

Best in slot Fighter:

• Asher's +5 Viper Strike Fang: +5 to hit, damage: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 average: 10.5
• Charm of Heroism for Level 5, 16 native STR, enhanced with:
  • Gloves of the Brute +5 STR
  • RoSP +1 STR
  • Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength +7 STR
  • Ioun Stone Onyx Cube +2 STR
  • Stu-Pendous Pendant +3 STR
  • Wicked Charm +1 STR
  • Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere +1 STR
  • Pouch of Tulz + Potion Dwarven Dopplebock +6 STR
  Total strength bonuses +16 to hit and damage
• Bracers of Fire / Bracers of Frost: +2 to damage
• Use a Runestone at start of adventure: +1 to damage
• Ring of Frost: +2 damage
• Boots of the North Wind: +3 damage
• Draco-Lich Claw Charm: +2 damage

Best in Slot Fighter Total: +21 to hit with an average of 36.5 damage

Best in slot Wizard:

• Drake's +5 Staff of Power: +5 spell damage
• Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 spell damage
• Ring of Greater Focus: +3 spell damage
• Bracelets of the Cabal, Gloves of the Cabal, Charm of the Cabal: +1 spell damage, can cast second spell as a free action once per combat.
• Hand of Glory + Ring of Focus: +1 spell damage (alternatively put Supreme Ring of Elemental Command and RoSP here to cut through spell resistance)

Best in Slot Wizard Total: 36 damage in the first round of combat, 18 damage thereafter

Again I don't think it's easy to argue the Wizard is out of balance with the fighter. The Fighter would need to miss around half the time with a +21 to hit bonus to deal less damage than the wizard over a 4 round combat.

In the Relic level middle ground between these builds the Fighter loses +4 to hit and +4 to damage by dropping the RoSP and moving from Legendary to Relic levels on the Girdle and the Viper Strike Fang.

The Wizard loses +7 damage with the departure of Relsa's Ring and dropping the Legendary SoP to the Relic SoP.

Other Points to Consider: The Wizards bonuses also benefit their more powerful spells, whereas the Fighter is pretty much hammering away at this basic melee attack level the whole time. I haven't included Mad Evoker's Charm here because I don't think it makes sense to deal 10 to yourself to deal an additional 3 to the monster.

But you should include the MEC in your BiS calculations.

Thanks for all the good suggestions. Please keep them coming. It is much appreciated.

I can get behind the idea of a low-damage inexhaustible (endless?) cantrip that is cast as a spell, say 2 dmg at 4th level, 3 dmg at 5th.

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
...

Other Points to Consider: The Wizards bonuses also benefit their more powerful spells, whereas the Fighter is pretty much hammering away at this basic melee attack level the whole time. I haven't included Mad Evoker's Charm here because I don't think it makes sense to deal 10 to yourself to deal an additional 3 to the monster.

But you should include the MEC in your BiS calculations.

It adds 3 damage in the first round of combat in the scenario under consideration.

One could reasonably argue that Wizards are balanced against other classes based on the impact of MeC and other items combining with their higher level spells - I'm just talking about the relative comparisons of Fighters basic attacks and the proposed 3 damage auto hit as a spell inexhaustible cantrip.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
...

Other Points to Consider: The Wizards bonuses also benefit their more powerful spells, whereas the Fighter is pretty much hammering away at this basic melee attack level the whole time. I haven't included Mad Evoker's Charm here because I don't think it makes sense to deal 10 to yourself to deal an additional 3 to the monster.

But you should include the MEC in your BiS calculations.

It adds 3 damage in the first round of combat in the scenario under consideration.

One could reasonably argue that Wizards are balanced against other classes based on the impact of MeC and other items combining with their higher level spells - I'm just talking about the relative comparisons of Fighters basic attacks and the proposed 3 damage auto hit as a spell inexhaustible cantrip.

You brought up the BiS at the high-end. If you are going to do it I would argue you need to include MEC at that point.

Barbarian - add Double STR bonus to damage when using a 2-handed melee weapon

Barbarian (5th) - add 'angry throw': once per combat may throw melee weapon as a ranged attack.

Bard (5th) - remove Soothe Wounds, add 'Mimic': cast any spell that was just cast by another spellcaster (including the monster on its last turn).

Cleric (5th) Add 'Divine Surge' special ability: double the points of one of your cure or damage spells (1/game)

Druid - remove spell surge. remove polymorph damage bonus. Lower 1st and 2nd level heal spells by 1pt. ADD elemental adept: choose one; Fire= +2 damage with spells; Water= +1 to all healing spells; Earth= +3 damage while polymorph; Air= +2 to-hit while polymorph. At 5th level, these increase to Fire+3, Water+2, Earth+5, Air+3.

Druid - Remove 0-level 'Detect Poison', add 2nd box to 'Resistance'.
Reduce 'Freezing Orb' from 3 box to 2, add 'Wind Gust': another player may make melee attacks at range this combat.


going to bed now, more ideas to come later.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Ranger (5th) - I have never used Barkskin, would prefer a more useful spell. Definitely would not like to lose the Cure spell like we did on the Prestige class though.

+1 to this. How about my favorite D&D ranger standby "Resist Energy: Target resists 5 dmg from your choice of fire, cold, lightning, acid, or sonic for 1 room."