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TOPIC: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure

Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #49

Johnathan wrote: Shouldn't add more XP past hardcore?!?! Hardcore shouldn't be equal to Nightmare in XP at all. Hardcore is WAY to easy compared to Nightmare! People "farm" XP in Hardcore because it is so easy.

I like the idea of Hell, I would play that in a heart beat! More risk more reward!


The entire point of adding a difficulty level requiring massive high end gear is to give the overequipped something to challenge them. If you add bonus EXP or other bigger tangible rewards it changes from something designed purely for those who need higher for a challenge and becomes something you HAVE to complete to get the most 'X' for the year. That drives more people to compete with it, which means more underequipped people play it, which means more players die to it, which gives them a negative experience and ultimately leads to players complaining about difficulty and eventually watering it down. Leading to the same spot we are today.. people wanting a harder challenge.

New difficulty, no new rewards.

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #50

Johnathan wrote: Shouldn't add more XP past hardcore?!?! Hardcore shouldn't be equal to Nightmare in XP at all. Hardcore is WAY to easy compared to Nightmare! People "farm" XP in Hardcore because it is so easy.

I like the idea of Hell, I would play that in a heart beat! More risk more reward!


Playing a dungeon once, which is all you can count for XP, isn't what I'd call "farming." If you play multiple times it has to be for either fun or loot, because the XP doesn't count.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #51

Instead of adding a new level, how about stop equipping all the uber tokens? This would require us to police ourselves. Maybe use a point system, based on rarities and and limit each person to X points.

Jeff does a great job providing a great experience each year. He puts a lot of work into making as many concessions to the regular players. With a little effort on our part, we can lighten that load by getting creative and challenging ourselves.

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #52

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The entire point of adding a difficulty level requiring massive high end gear is to give the overequipped something to challenge them. If you add bonus EXP or other bigger tangible rewards it changes from something designed purely for those who need higher for a challenge and becomes something you HAVE to complete to get the most 'X' for the year. That drives more people to compete with it, which means more underequipped people play it, which means more players die to it, which gives them a negative experience and ultimately leads to players complaining about difficulty and eventually watering it down. Leading to the same spot we are today.. people wanting a harder challenge.

New difficulty, no new rewards.


Name one other game that has XP that does not grant higher XP for higher difficulty. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I still like the Nightmare+X, where X is anything. All rewards are identical to Nightmare, but you get X*10 (or 50 or 100) extra XP, and you get X extra treasure chips (for the whole party) BUT only if the entire party survives.

So, if we do Nightmare+1 and we all survive, great, we get a little more XP (as I think we should) and one more treasure pull for the whole party.

If we do Nightmare+100 and even one person dies, we get just the normal XP and treasure. In other words, we got nothing other than a challenge bigger than we could handle and lots of player death.

Are players really going to say "Nightmare+100 is too hard!"? If they did, can't we just say "play Nightmare+10 instead"? The point is Nightmare+X is only as hard as you choose to make it, and if you choose wisely you get minimally rewarded (XP, treasure, AND challenge, because different people value those differently). If you choose poorly, well, then you chose poorly.

balthasar wrote: Instead of adding a new level, how about stop equipping all the uber tokens? This would require us to police ourselves. Maybe use a point system, based on rarities and and limit each person to X points.


It would hurt token sales which are an important part of what funds this entire thing.
My online token shop: www.tdtavern.com

We buy, sell, and trade True Dungeon tokens. We also have a convenient consignment program where you can sell your own tokens.

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #53

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Johnathan wrote: Shouldn't add more XP past hardcore?!?! Hardcore shouldn't be equal to Nightmare in XP at all. Hardcore is WAY to easy compared to Nightmare! People "farm" XP in Hardcore because it is so easy.

I like the idea of Hell, I would play that in a heart beat! More risk more reward!


Playing a dungeon once, which is all you can count for XP, isn't what I'd call "farming." If you play multiple times it has to be for either fun or loot, because the XP doesn't count.


I think the point was people are dragging new folks to get XP easier in Hardcore than Nightmare. Also, farming treasure tokens.
Team Legacy
Yes I'm an Arneson you do the math.

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #54

Be careful about invoking other games, where you don't get any XP if you die. In fact, sometimes you lose XP from death and vampire touches. You're not suggesting we go there, are you?

Ok, I'll name one: True Grind. It gives one treasure chip, period, one completion token, period, and zero XP, period, regardless of whether you run normal, hardcore or nightmare. People still run it on all levels of difficulty without any additional rewards whatsoever. I see NM+ as the same category of subgame - something you do for the challenge, not because you get anything out of it.

If you don't think the rewards and satisfaction are worth the risk, don't risk it.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #55

A big concern with adding an XP component to NM+ is pragmatic. The current XP system is FUBARed. Getting complex coding changes when we can't get the current one back on its feet seems like asking a lot.

But even if we could, I'd still vote against it because it goes against the spirit of it. And then what do you do about all the nightmare players who got the same XP as hardcore for the last decade? And if you fix that, how do you deal with the hardcore players who whine they'd have done NM if they'd known?

So, for everyone's sanity, just leave XP out if it.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #56

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Ultra Nightmare mode - Gives +1 Treasure Chip, Gives +1 XP, Gives Ultra Nightmare Survival Pin (no pin on death)

Thoughts?


My thoughts are that it should give exactly the same as Nightmare. If you don't feel challenged by Nightmare, do the higher level. The way I see it, levels above Normal are all "Advanced" with the same XP, and you choose the level of difficulty that you want.

Are people that are wanting a higher level doing it because they really want more of a challenge, or is it all about the extra loot/XP/Pins/etc?

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #57

Brad Mortensen wrote: A big concern with adding an XP component to NM+ is pragmatic. The current XP system is FUBARed. Getting complex coding changes when we can't get the current one back on its feet seems like asking a lot.

But even if we could, I'd still vote against it because it goes against the spirit of it. And then what do you do about all the nightmare players who got the same XP as hardcore for the last decade? And if you fix that, how do you deal with the hardcore players who whine they'd have done NM if they'd known?

So, for everyone's sanity, just leave XP out if it.


I really don't see why Hardcore is the same XP as Nightmare when it's easier to survive. I would do 1000 Normal, 1500 Hardcore, and 2000 Nightmare, if added a harder level in the mix it is 2500.

I know groups that don't do Nightmare because they rather have ZERO chance to die in Hardcore and it's the same XP.
Team Legacy
Yes I'm an Arneson you do the math.

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #58

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The entire point of adding a difficulty level requiring massive high end gear is to give the overequipped something to challenge them. If you add bonus EXP or other bigger tangible rewards it changes from something designed purely for those who need higher for a challenge and becomes something you HAVE to complete to get the most 'X' for the year. That drives more people to compete with it, which means more underequipped people play it, which means more players die to it, which gives them a negative experience and ultimately leads to players complaining about difficulty and eventually watering it down. Leading to the same spot we are today.. people wanting a harder challenge.

New difficulty, no new rewards.


Name one other game that has XP that does not grant higher XP for higher difficulty. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I still like the Nightmare+X, where X is anything. All rewards are identical to Nightmare, but you get X*10 (or 50 or 100) extra XP, and you get X extra treasure chips (for the whole party) BUT only if the entire party survives.

So, if we do Nightmare+1 and we all survive, great, we get a little more XP (as I think we should) and one more treasure pull for the whole party.

If we do Nightmare+100 and even one person dies, we get just the normal XP and treasure. In other words, we got nothing other than a challenge bigger than we could handle and lots of player death.

Are players really going to say "Nightmare+100 is too hard!"? If they did, can't we just say "play Nightmare+10 instead"? The point is Nightmare+X is only as hard as you choose to make it, and if you choose wisely you get minimally rewarded (XP, treasure, AND challenge, because different people value those differently). If you choose poorly, well, then you chose poorly.

balthasar wrote: Instead of adding a new level, how about stop equipping all the uber tokens? This would require us to police ourselves. Maybe use a point system, based on rarities and and limit each person to X points.


It would hurt token sales which are an important part of what funds this entire thing.


I am not saying stop buying tokens. If someone feels that the highest level offered isn't a challenge, they can just leave a few tokens in their binder for a run or two. If we add a higher level now, with anything different as an incentive, where do we stop? Every few years we will have to have a new, tougher level, creating more work for the people that are already working pretty hard.

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #59

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Johnathan wrote: Shouldn't add more XP past hardcore?!?! Hardcore shouldn't be equal to Nightmare in XP at all. Hardcore is WAY to easy compared to Nightmare! People "farm" XP in Hardcore because it is so easy.

I like the idea of Hell, I would play that in a heart beat! More risk more reward!


The entire point of adding a difficulty level requiring massive high end gear is to give the overequipped something to challenge them. If you add bonus EXP or other bigger tangible rewards it changes from something designed purely for those who need higher for a challenge and becomes something you HAVE to complete to get the most 'X' for the year. That drives more people to compete with it, which means more underequipped people play it, which means more players die to it, which gives them a negative experience and ultimately leads to players complaining about difficulty and eventually watering it down. Leading to the same spot we are today.. people wanting a harder challenge.

New difficulty, no new rewards.


Agreed.

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Re: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure 5 years 2 months ago #60

Kaledor wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: A big concern with adding an XP component to NM+ is pragmatic. The current XP system is FUBARed. Getting complex coding changes when we can't get the current one back on its feet seems like asking a lot.

But even if we could, I'd still vote against it because it goes against the spirit of it. And then what do you do about all the nightmare players who got the same XP as hardcore for the last decade? And if you fix that, how do you deal with the hardcore players who whine they'd have done NM if they'd known?

So, for everyone's sanity, just leave XP out if it.


I really don't see why Hardcore is the same XP as Nightmare when it's easier to survive. I would do 1000 Normal, 1500 Hardcore, and 2000 Nightmare, if added a harder level in the mix it is 2500.

I know groups that don't do Nightmare because they rather have ZERO chance to die in Hardcore and it's the same XP.


That would have been one way to do it. For whatever reason, that's not what they decided. I'm not defending that decision, I wasn't involved in any of those discussions.

I'm just telling you how it's been for years, and the can of worms it opens if you try to "fix" it now.

Which is the same sort of answer I got when I asked why Grind gives zero XP.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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