TOPIC: Suggestions for 2015

Phiswiz wrote: 2. I don't know if GenCon would allow it but start the regular runs on wed after all the GT runs.

Probably not feasible.

Set up crew has done an AMAZING job, especially this year.

But many volunteers don't arrive until Wednesday afternoon or even evening. And then you still have training to do. Also, this year GT runs couldn't use Prestige classes because that wasn't ready yet. So I doubt TD would be ready to do normal runs on Wednesday.

In addition, right now everyone (volunteers included) gets kicked out at 8 PM on Wednesday, apparently because staying longer would incur costs due to required security personnel.

In theory, I have been willing and interested in running one or two Grind events Wednesday evening, but the past few years TPTB have determined it wouldn't be worth it (or that there are too many logistical hurdles).

3. Have NPCs available for pictures after the run.

Maybe it would work if we were overflowing with volunteers.

Otherwise it seems like a poor usage of volunteer time. Better for them to be doing actual work than just standing around for pictures.

MAYBE you could have specific times when an NPC would be around for photos, but of course there is the risk of spoiling the adventure for those who haven't done it yet.

joshua baessler wrote: I heard too many horror stories of TPKs and near TPKs because a group of newbies selected Nightmare with no previous experience and only their starter gear.

Raven wrote: That said, I agree that Coaches should stress Nightmare is not a good option for new players. Odds are very good that they will have a TPK before the final room.

I agree with Raven. A decent Player Coach should be able to glance at the available tokens and make a reasonable recommendation for the difficulty.

joshua baessler wrote: Thank you Raven, the completion tokens completely slipped my mind. I guess those might entice newbies to try beyond Normal, but Nightmare seems insane without proper gear or experience. I just feel bad for those players who wasted their money just to die horribly. I don't want to see anyone walk away with a sour impression of TD because no one steered them away from Nightmare or Hardcore.

I know I'm coming from a different direction than you are, but there are also a fair number of people who think that Nightmare is really quite tame. So it is always kind of "interesting" to hear other people say that Nightmare is insane.

As you noted, it is more than just about tokens. A large factor is the people you are adventuring with and the party dynamic. I've had newbies have a fun (and easy) time on Nightmare because they were adventuring with the right veterans.

MetaphoricDragon wrote: I have to chime in in favor of better lighting and entrance signage as well.

On the first day (Wednesday) I had a hard time finding where TD was. I was used to its location last year and it took awhile (and a call to Jeff) for me to figure out where Hall A was.

Toran wrote: I'm going to add my voice (again) to the many existing calls for more lighting and the return of True Tavern or the TrueCraft-style story scape.

When I first did True Dungeon in 2006, one of the major things that made it attractive was everyone chilling out together, trading tokens and generally having a good time in the well-lit, alcohol-providing tavern space. Raven's Rogues' Game and the nightly riddle contest were also major factors - they make TD feel like it's more than just "Go through this awesome dungeon thing" and more like a community/larger experience. Having a tavern space also lures in people who don't know much about TD and allows for easier transfer of knowledge to noobs who aren't on the forums.

The year with TrueCraft was also great because the open doors, visible rock walls and blowing "snow" were extremely intriguing for people not in the know and similarly lured people in. But there has to be something inside that makes you want to stay and hang out.

It seems trendy to reminisce about how fun and cool True Craft was.

All I can remember was that it was a major PITA. Ridiculously long lines. Even when you didn't want the long NPC spiel, sometimes the NPC wouldn't let you just skip to the end. All for some frickin' earcuffs!

If there is ever a TrueCraft like event, please do not have special tokens or XP or anything like that. And have some sort of expedited version for those with limited time.

This is especially relevant for volunteers. As a full-time TD volunteer, I barely have enough time for my few runs. I don't even have any time to trade any more. If True Craft was just some player-driven games, then that's fine. But I wouldn't have the time for anything like 2012.

Too bad we couldn't add something to the mix above Nightmare mode that's ONLY available if you know to ask for it (I.E. Forum person)

Hell on Earth level, or some such. Add a big boost to the difficulty. Question is what would it be for? NM True Grind serves as the "prestige" event. If you survive that you truly are awesome.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Too bad we couldn't add something to the mix above Nightmare mode that's ONLY available if you know to ask for it (I.E. Forum person)

Hell on Earth level, or some such. Add a big boost to the difficulty. Question is what would it be for? NM True Grind serves as the "prestige" event. If you survive that you truly are awesome.

But every year only 1 or 2 groups actually do Nightmare Grind. I plan to continue offering the option (once again it is intended for only certain psychographic groups) but every year I do have to ask myself whether I *should* actually go through the trouble of offering it since only a handful of people actually do it.

It is like with the UR Special power. Every year I come up with something but I don't spend too much time on it any more since no one has ever used a UR Special in Grind and is unlikely in the future (since it can never compete with a Mithral Coin of Fate).

In terms of difficulty, I would say:

(Easiest)
TD Non-Lethal
TD Normal
Grind Normal
TD Hardcore
TD Nightmare
Grind Hardcore
BIG GAP
BIG GAP
BIG GAP
Grind Nightmare
(Hardest)

Grind Nightmare is indeed a major challenge to survive, as it should be. And there is a substantial gap between Grind Hardcore and Grind Nightmare.

However I would venture to say that Grind Hardcore is probably a little bit tougher than a standard TD adventure on Nightmare. I would love to hear the perspective of players though (since my Grind perspective is obviously a bit distorted since I'm on the other side of the combat board).

Incognito wrote: A decent Player Coach should be able to glance at the available tokens and make a reasonable recommendation for the difficulty.

If I had my druthers, coaches whould not recommend any difficulty. It should be the players' responsibility to inform the coach when and if they want to play something other than Normal mode.

That said, I have updated the 2015 Coach's Guide (don't look for it now) to include advice on suggesting a lower difficulty if a token-poor group votes for Nightmare. But if the group is feeling suicidal, that's their right.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Too bad we couldn't add something to the mix above Nightmare mode that's ONLY available if you know to ask for it (I.E. Forum person)

Aren't the non-Nomal modes kind of a secret already? I know they're printed on the party card, but how many newbies would even think to ask about them? I suspect most of them see the party card as a big jumble of lines, numbers, and weird symbols.

Prestige classes were not an option for the GT runs because we felt it would add a level of complication to first-time runs that were the not only the "soft openings" of the dungeons, but also served as training times for volunteers.

Perhaps next year, if the GT runs are Weds night again, there will be enough familiarity with the prestige classes to make them an option.

Druegar wrote:

Incognito wrote: A decent Player Coach should be able to glance at the available tokens and make a reasonable recommendation for the difficulty.

If I had my druthers, coaches whould not recommend any difficulty. It should be the players' responsibility to inform the coach when and if they want to play something other than Normal mode.

That said, I have updated the 2015 Coach's Guide (don't look for it now) to include advice on suggesting a lower difficulty if a token-poor group votes for Nightmare. But if the group is feeling suicidal, that's their right.

It is the players' responsibility and they have the right to choose whatever difficulty levels they want.

However, it is not uncommon for players to make a choice that leaves them unhappy. And more often than not, they end up blaming TD and the DM's.

For Grind, there have been plenty of groups where I have not recommended that they do Nightmare cause they would have gotten mauled and mauled bad. If they insisted on it they could still do it, but I reckon they would have lasted maybe 10-20 minutes and so it probably would not have been an enjoyable experience for them.

Other times I have seen Purpled (and even Relic'ed or Artifact'ed) groups opt for Normal difficulty. Sometimes they just want something relaxed and easier. Other times they just like stomping weak little monsters. But it's another case where I might ask "are you sure?" because it is likely they will mow through the monsters and finish 30 minutes early. I mean I wouldn't mind a 30 minute break cause we finished early but I don't want the players to be bored and then complain it was "too easy."

But unlike normal player coaches, I know the monsters and their stats. So by taking a quick glance at the party card I can see right away if the monsters are going to be too hard (monsters will hit you unless they roll a 1; you pretty much need a critical to hit the monster) or too easy (monsters will only hit you on a 20; anywhere you slide is a hit) for a typical group.

Incognito wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Too bad we couldn't add something to the mix above Nightmare mode that's ONLY available if you know to ask for it (I.E. Forum person)

Hell on Earth level, or some such. Add a big boost to the difficulty. Question is what would it be for? NM True Grind serves as the "prestige" event. If you survive that you truly are awesome.

But every year only 1 or 2 groups actually do Nightmare Grind. I plan to continue offering the option (once again it is intended for only certain psychographic groups) but every year I do have to ask myself whether I *should* actually go through the trouble of offering it since only a handful of people actually do it.

It is like with the UR Special power. Every year I come up with something but I don't spend too much time on it any more since no one has ever used a UR Special in Grind and is unlikely in the future (since it can never compete with a Mithral Coin of Fate).

In terms of difficulty, I would say:

(Easiest)
TD Non-Lethal
TD Normal
Grind Normal
TD Hardcore
TD Nightmare
Grind Hardcore
BIG GAP
BIG GAP
BIG GAP
Grind Nightmare
(Hardest)

Grind Nightmare is indeed a major challenge to survive, as it should be. And there is a substantial gap between Grind Hardcore and Grind Nightmare.

However I would venture to say that Grind Hardcore is probably a little bit tougher than a standard TD adventure on Nightmare. I would love to hear the perspective of players though (since my Grind perspective is obviously a bit distorted since I'm on the other side of the combat board).

I am glad you make the effort to do so. While the Nightmare Grind stuff isn't utilized much it is a great challenge to have in place for those who want it.

The Wandering Minstrels are hosting several runs next year for friends in Nightmare mode to get groups in that would not normally be able to run but I also plan to host a single True Grind event built specifically for Nightmare runs and recruit an elite team to challenge it.

I love the effort you put into making True Grind amazing for players and I look forward to besting your challenge in 2015

Incognito wrote:
In terms of difficulty, I would say:

(Easiest)
TD Non-Lethal
TD Normal
Grind Normal
TD Hardcore
TD Nightmare
Grind Hardcore
BIG GAP
BIG GAP
BIG GAP
Grind Nightmare
(Hardest)

Grind Nightmare is indeed a major challenge to survive, as it should be. And there is a substantial gap between Grind Hardcore and Grind Nightmare.

However I would venture to say that Grind Hardcore is probably a little bit tougher than a standard TD adventure on Nightmare. I would love to hear the perspective of players though (since my Grind perspective is obviously a bit distorted since I'm on the other side of the combat board).

I can't comment on how big the gap to Grind NM is, since I've been too chicken to try it. But I'd say the difficulties are in the right order.

Incognito wrote:

It seems trendy to reminisce about how fun and cool True Craft was.

All I can remember was that it was a major PITA. Ridiculously long lines. Even when you didn't want the long NPC spiel, sometimes the NPC wouldn't let you just skip to the end. All for some frickin' earcuffs!

If there is ever a TrueCraft like event, please do not have special tokens or XP or anything like that. And have some sort of expedited version for those with limited time.

This is especially relevant for volunteers. As a full-time TD volunteer, I barely have enough time for my few runs. I don't even have any time to trade any more. If True Craft was just some player-driven games, then that's fine. But I wouldn't have the time for anything like 2012.

To clarify, it's not the specific events of TrueCraft that I'm reminiscing about (Hi Divine!). It's there having been an activity and a space where people were hanging out, interacting, and that felt like you could reasonably spend time in that space. I can't imagine sitting in the dark in the 2014-2015 storyscapes for an hour or two hours or whatever. People prefered to make trades in the hallway.

Jake Fitch wrote: A sign pointing towards one of the closed doors could work. The exit door doesn't need to be open all the time. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

For the record: I went out through the "in" door every time, I figured we weren't supposed to open the closed doors and let more light in. So an open exit door definitely would have worked. A sign might have worked if I noticed it.

Incognito wrote:

Phiswiz wrote: 2. I don't know if GenCon would allow it but start the regular runs on wed after all the GT runs.

Probably not feasible.

Set up crew has done an AMAZING job, especially this year.

But many volunteers don't arrive until Wednesday afternoon or even evening. And then you still have training to do. Also, this year GT runs couldn't use Prestige classes because that wasn't ready yet. So I doubt TD would be ready to do normal runs on Wednesday.

Definitely to do this the setup would have to start perhaps a day earlier which may or may not be possible. If it is possible there is one thing to consider: Wednesday at GenCon is "trade" day where industry people attend things. Many of these people are usually pretty busy during the rest of GenCon but it is possible True Dungeon could sell a decent amount of runs on Wednesday to these people who won't be able to make it to runs later in the con. It might be a way to get more revenue with relatively minimal effort and to get more people exposed to True Dungeon.

Now, since there aren't any events (that I'm aware of) on Wednesday for "normal" attendees, I'm assuming there is some sort of GenCon rule about it. I'm assuming the Golden Ticket run is treated as special because it's not a ticketed event? So I'm not sure they could let others do runs on Wednesday.

Incognito wrote: In addition, right now everyone (volunteers included) gets kicked out at 8 PM on Wednesday, apparently because staying longer would incur costs due to required security personnel.

In theory, I have been willing and interested in running one or two Grind events Wednesday evening, but the past few years TPTB have determined it wouldn't be worth it (or that there are too many logistical hurdles).

Is that a True Dungeon limitation or a GenCon limitation? I don't think I was there past 8PM so I'm not sure.

I would love a TrueGrind on Wednesday. If there are GenCon restrictions on selling events tickets on Wednesday I wonder if additional runs on Wednesday night could be done for Adventurer's Guild members (or even something above that, perhaps you get a ticket for every $8k order) and/or volunteers. This would allow these people to get the runs in on Wednesday, open up more runs during the con for others, and potentially help out with volunteers (easier to volunteer for more sessions if you do say two of your runs on Wednesday night).

Just a thought. I don't know GenCon and True Dungeon costs/rules enough to know if it would work, but I think there are options to taking advantage of some Wednesday dungeon runs and/or True Grind.