TOPIC: Player level issues (benefits, confusion, etc.)

I thought Torran was referring to experience and not XP though I could be mistaken. XP is the amount you get from each different dungeon. Experience is having done something. If I do a total of 15 dungeons (regardless of if they are the same 15 dungeons) I would argue I have more experience doing dungeons than someone that does 2 different. NOT XP just experience. I would say that neither of these have anything to do with loyalty. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I think the current XP system works fine. The name of 'level' is confusing to some. I don't think 'rank' should be based upon number of years played or number of dungeons ran (experience) but only based on XP.
If there was a way to value loyalty it would need look at Years Played, Total Dungeons Ran, Tokens Bought, Tickets Bought, Amount Volunteered, Forum Contribution and probably a thousand over things that would be very difficult to quantify.

You're right, Jedi - I was talking about actual experience doing dungeons rather than XP.

I would argue that if you do 15 runs of the same dungeon, you're not more experienced at doing "dungeons" you're experienced at doing one, single, dungeon. Just as playing Super Mario over and over again doesn't make you experienced at "video games."

The rest of your argument is reasonable - I suppose what I'm really getting at is that currently all rewards for TD skew heavily towards "how much money did you give us?" rather than "how long have you been with us?" This is reflected in the fact that it costs $50 per run, and you get MANY bonuses for large token orders. And that's not the worst way to run a business. But it IS only rewarding cash expenditure, essentially.

I also think you're right that volunteers should receive some kind of special recognition beyond the year-to-year rewards like a special forum handle or something.

I agree with you, Toran, to a point. Repeat runs through the dungeon does allow you to try alternate strategies that may help you in the future, particularly on puzzles that either were left unsolved at the first run through or have multiple possible approaches.

Just like your video game example, while repeat runs have strong diminishing returns, learning additional strategy approaches can sometimes translate to other video games, particularly of a similar type or the same publisher.

I think our current approach to XP (once per dungeon regardless of puzzle or combat) is a workable method that balances people who run multiple times to those that just run each dungeon once. It rewards trying each dungeon but doesn't promote unnecessary reruns to advance.

There is no doubt that, being a business, there are a lot of rewards geared toward heavy token buyers. The rank (player level) rewards, though, don't require any token purchases. Just purchasing the tickets at the event.

Well... With the exception that big spenders typically have better gear, so can brave the Hardcore and Nightmare runs sooner, and rack up XP at twice the rate as casual players without sugar daddies.

But that said, any system has to measure something. In the spirit of D&D, defeating more and tougher obstacles has always yielded more XP. I'm glad our XP isn't based on "rooms defeated" - that would be overly complicated.

Brad Mortensen wrote: But that said, any system has to measure something. In the spirit of D&D, defeating more and tougher obstacles has always yielded more XP. I'm glad our XP isn't based on "rooms defeated" - that would be overly complicated.

Well, in 3rd Edition XP is based on the difference between Challenge Rating. So if players are tougher, than defeating monsters that are proportionally tougher yields the same amount as XP (not more).

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: But that said, any system has to measure something. In the spirit of D&D, defeating more and tougher obstacles has always yielded more XP. I'm glad our XP isn't based on "rooms defeated" - that would be overly complicated.

Well, in 3rd Edition XP is based on the difference between Challenge Rating. So if players are tougher, than defeating monsters that are proportionally tougher yields the same amount as XP (not more).

Yeah but we are playing by ALMOST D&D rules. TD is unique. Where else would you have level 4-5 characters running around with ARTIFACTS? Although the CR vs player level would be interesting. Obviously the higher CR/higer level would get the same xp but more rewards.

In First Edition there was a little known (by most) seldom used suggestion that XP be scaled down based on the level of the character and the monster. So a 10th level character who defeated a 1st level monster would get only 1/10 the nominal XP value.

FatalDrakkon wrote: Yeah but we are playing by ALMOST D&D rules. TD is unique. Where else would you have level 4-5 characters running around with ARTIFACTS? Although the CR vs player level would be interesting. Obviously the higher CR/higer level would get the same xp but more rewards.

Oh I know. In fact, I just recently posted something similar to what you said in a different point.

I was mainly arguing with Brad about the "spirit of D&D" comment regarding how much XP is received.

TD can (and should be able to) depart from D&D when it is needed to suit TD's needs.

I was typing in a hurry. I was just saying I didn't see a problem with nightmare getting more XP than non-lethal, for instance. And, TD tends to do things in the spirit of D&D, but with a half-dozen versions to choose from, and the live action nature of the game, TD had to be its own version.

But I've been playing D&D since the purple box. There was no "challenge rating" back then. Killing a giant rat got you 5xp regardless of your level, and dragons got you thousands. The scaling Harlax talks about didn't come about until AD&D.

So that's why I was talking about the spirit. The details of the rules change every few years.

So there wasn't really anything to argue about

I completely agree with the idea of an overhaul, and like your ideas, Raven. I agree with others, however, that the level benefits will be difficult to police without having tokens or something else to show level (without having to look players up).

The problem is, tokens aren't soulbound. MoN can be bought on eBay and other places.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I was typing in a hurry. I was just saying I didn't see a problem with nightmare getting more XP than non-lethal, for instance. And, TD tends to do things in the spirit of D&D, but with a half-dozen versions to choose from, and the live action nature of the game, TD had to be its own version.

But I've been playing D&D since the purple box. There was no "challenge rating" back then. Killing a giant rat got you 5xp regardless of your level, and dragons got you thousands. The scaling Harlax talks about didn't come about until AD&D.

So that's why I was talking about the spirit. The details of the rules change every few years.

So there wasn't really anything to argue about

Quite right. First edition AD&D DMs book. Not the original booklets. But since first edition was published in 78, I'm still a dinosaur for referencing it...