TOPIC: Player level issues (benefits, confusion, etc.)

I totally love Raven's idea. I also had to explain to a few players that the token of nobility didn't grant them a 5th level character card (and it took me a couple of times when I first earned mine to understand that too).

I thought that player "level" 2 was required to play True Grind as well...

Deni Valetutto wrote: I thought that player "level" 2 was required to play True Grind as well...

Unfortunately there is no real good way to police that.

I doubt the GenCon system and the out-of-date TD XP database can prevent people who are not Level 2+ from buying tickets.

And since filling last minute slots can be hard, it isn't really practical turning people away when they show up with a ticket, just because they aren't level 2.

I do wish the system was better though.

I hope we all stay level-headed about this.

www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html

if the new systems keeps the character selection benefit, it should stay at 3rd Rank. you get Rank 2 after a single adventure, the only reason it had anything at all was for events that should require previous experience with the game/system.

5th Rank and 6th Rank need to be left alone. yes, 'need'. and here is why: 6th rank currently gets you a bonus treasure token. this can either be verified by the epilogue room having access to the XP database OR by showing some items that 'proves' you are 6th Rank. that is do-able and works, if there is no DB access we can show our 5th Rank medallion and get our treasure (like it worked this year). so, what happens if you officially move the treasure token to 5th level? now, you have people gaining 5th level at gencon and wanting their bonus tokens...but if the epilogue room doesn't have access to the XP database, there is no way to verify. they now have to start giving out the extra treasure chip to EVERYONE, because there is no item to show for a newly 5th rank player. We need that extra buffer between getting your 5th rank medallion and 6th rank treasure chip.

i really feel that the established rewards should stay where they are:
3rd: choose class before 1 and 2.
5th: lord/lady forum access and medallion
6th: bonus treasure.
7th: badge holder
8th: pin

but other than that, we can add a 4th rank bonus of some kind...?
and as for 9th and up, i wonder if we should challenge the 'no in-game bonus' with allowing 9 or 10 rank to play a duplicate class. not actually an extra thing, just guarantees that you get to play your preferred class.

kurtreznor wrote: 5th Rank and 6th Rank need to be left alone. yes, 'need'. and here is why: 6th rank currently gets you a bonus treasure token. this can either be verified by the epilogue room having access to the XP database OR by showing some items that 'proves' you are 6th Rank. that is do-able and works, if there is no DB access we can show our 5th Rank medallion and get our treasure (like it worked this year). so, what happens if you officially move the treasure token to 5th level? now, you have people gaining 5th level at gencon and wanting their bonus tokens...but if the epilogue room doesn't have access to the XP database, there is no way to verify. they now have to start giving out the extra treasure chip to EVERYONE, because there is no item to show for a newly 5th rank player. We need that extra buffer between getting your 5th rank medallion and 6th rank treasure chip.

i really feel that the established rewards should stay where they are:
3rd: choose class before 1 and 2.
5th: lord/lady forum access and medallion
6th: bonus treasure.
7th: badge holder
8th: pin

I think what Raven is suggesting is something like:

5th level: Medallion + Bonus treasure (which can be proven with the Medallion)

6th level: Special forum access

With this year's change, the Medallion (available at 5th level) DOES currently qualify you for the 6th level extra treasure. That's the issue.

kurtreznor wrote: and as for 9th and up, i wonder if we should challenge the 'no in-game bonus' with allowing 9 or 10 rank to play a duplicate class. not actually an extra thing, just guarantees that you get to play your preferred class.

While I will agree it would rock to be able to duplicate a class, I am opposed to it on the basis of it royally messing with the party card and pucks in the dungeon.

When you duplicate a class, how's the Coach to notate which (insert class) is which? In the dungeon, how's the DM to know which puck belongs to which (insert class)?

If there is a way to smoothly and neatly implement it into the existing frameworks of coaching/DMing, I might change my mind on this subject, but at present I think it would raise more issues than it might solve.

Just my two cents.

Duplicate classes, while cool, will have quite a few repercussions downstream, including but not limited to:

1. Party Card (how to distinguish, have to leverage an unused class's line)
2. Character Cards (we already have to fetch 5th or prestige class cards, this would be an additional opportunity to need to run to the lobby and could add to the imbalance due to popularity)
3. Combat Pucks (would have to leverage an unused class's puck which can cause confusion for the DM, particularly if the paladin is guarding one of the duplicated class members)
4. Epilogue Room (processing of the party card, including # of treasure stamps appropriate)
5. Newer players may learn of the duplication but not learn of the reason why it was allowed leading to more explanations by the coach as to why 1 group is able to, but another is not.

I feel that consistency in whether there is an in-game or no in-game effect for rank is important. Otherwise, it will lead to frustration and more misunderstanding than what we already face.

Donald Rients wrote: I thought these:
Rank 2: You get to choose your class before Rank 1 players
Rank 3: (insert benefit here)
were actually this:
Rank 2: Can play True Grind
Rank 3: You get to choose your class before Rank 1 players

Yep - you're right.
But the Lvl 2 requirement for True Arena (which is what it was originally) and True Grind, that rarely gets enforced - as Incognito pointed out.

I elected to remove it from the rank system, and suggest the rank benefit on lvl 2 because it becomes a simple matter of "Someone who has played before gets to pick class before someone who hasn't played before"

Picc wrote: I like the idea, the system is dire need of an overhaul. Anything that makes it clear its a loyalty program is only a good thing IMO. Also like the idea of moving the extra token draw to 5th since it makes the medallion of nobility useful as a treasure proof.

It might also be a good idea to just say the higher ranked player gets first dibs on character choice outright rather then just players above rank X, since a lot of folks seem to think that's already the way it works and it would give each rank some benefit even if there was nothing else at that level.

I like the idea of making it a simple "higher rank gets first dibs on class" but as others have pointed out: we would need some way to prove - at every level - what your Rank is. Okay, so it's the same problem we're having right now where lvl 3 players can't prove their level to get first pick above a lvl 2 player. Is this something we're okay with? If not, how do we change it without requiring people to order a "Proof of Rank" token every time they advance?

kurtreznor wrote: if the new systems keeps the character selection benefit, it should stay at 3rd Rank. you get Rank 2 after a single adventure, the only reason it had anything at all was for events that should require previous experience with the game/system.

Actually, that was exactly why I suggested the move: because you'd get rank 2 after a single adventure.
The difference between "played before" and "never played" is more significant in choosing class than "lvl 2" and "lvl 3"

5th Rank and 6th Rank need to be left alone. yes, 'need'. and here is why: 6th rank currently gets you a bonus treasure token. this can either be verified by the epilogue room having access to the XP database OR by showing some items that 'proves' you are 6th Rank. that is do-able and works, if there is no DB access we can show our 5th Rank medallion and get our treasure (like it worked this year). so, what happens if you officially move the treasure token to 5th level? now, you have people gaining 5th level at gencon and wanting their bonus tokens...but if the epilogue room doesn't have access to the XP database, there is no way to verify.

Yes. That would be the case. There would be a built-in "lag" before people could use the benefit of being 5th level. It would suck, but it wouldn't change things (very much) from the way they are right now. --> You become 5th level. You go home, and send away for a token. You come back next year and can start collecting your bonus treasure chip.
This would just codify an already established procedure.

Also, I have a *slight* inclination to put it at 5th level, because then it could also be added at 10th level, and at 15th, and (should we ever advance that far) as a 5-level-bonus. Not saying we can't do that at 6th and 12th or whatever. But... just an idea.

The BIG idea(s) is to change player level into Rank and re-work the entire Reward Tree into something meaningful.

I had to explain the diffence between outside XP and ingame character level 4-5 times on my different runs this year as I was introducing about 6 new players to TD. Frustrating as some people i play with don't even bother tracking online XP but keep poking about how to get the higher level cards...

Like to see an option for various rank pins that would be an optional accessorie to buy with our token order online for the lower ranks. Don't need to have them but would make character selection a lot easier, i'd gladly pay $5 for the ability to get one and have it handy. Plus it would be nice for grind as a way to make note in description to have way to verify rank 2 or higher needed to play.

Raven wrote:

5th Rank and 6th Rank need to be left alone. yes, 'need'. and here is why: 6th rank currently gets you a bonus treasure token. this can either be verified by the epilogue room having access to the XP database OR by showing some items that 'proves' you are 6th Rank. that is do-able and works, if there is no DB access we can show our 5th Rank medallion and get our treasure (like it worked this year). so, what happens if you officially move the treasure token to 5th level? now, you have people gaining 5th level at gencon and wanting their bonus tokens...but if the epilogue room doesn't have access to the XP database, there is no way to verify.

Yes. That would be the case. There would be a built-in "lag" before people could use the benefit of being 5th level. It would suck, but it wouldn't change things (very much) from the way they are right now. --> You become 5th level. You go home, and send away for a token. You come back next year and can start collecting your bonus treasure chip.
This would just codify an already established procedure.

Also, I have a *slight* inclination to put it at 5th level, because then it could also be added at 10th level, and at 15th, and (should we ever advance that far) as a 5-level-bonus. Not saying we can't do that at 6th and 12th or whatever. But... just an idea.

The BIG idea(s) is to change player level into Rank and re-work the entire Reward Tree into something meaningful.

if it is done this way, the 5th rank bonus would need to be VERY specific in how it is explained. ie. "after the event you get 5th rank, you will be able to order a token that signifies your rank. you may present this token after any future adventure to gain +1 treasure chip." it would have to spell out that being 5th rank DOES NOT give you a treasure chip, it earns you the token which gives a treasure chip...said token is only available AFTER gencon once you are 5th rank.

the thing I don't especially like about this solution is that it is functionally identical to keeping the treasure token reward at 6th (using the 5th rank medallion as the 'proof'), but requires a less elegant explanation of the rank bonus to prevent player complaints.

however, I do like the idea of additional bonus treasure every 5 levels, so, there is that

I think the overall goal here is an excellent one. Just switching to "rank" would be a big improvement and then re-evaluating the rewards list a nice bonus on top. The list is pretty archaic right now and confusing to new players.

I think kurtreznor's solution to the proof-of-level problem is fine. Tying the reward explicitly to the nobility token should take care of anyone who thinks they can start getting treasure chips right away.

-Scot

This year I had the rare pleasure of having to explain to one of my friends( a new TD player who has NEVER played D&D either) why our characters start at level 4. He is an avid board game player so he understands progression but he couldn't fathom why we wouldn't just start at level 1 and progress from there. It was hard to tell him that there was basically no way playing a level 1 character would be fun or heroic.

We do need to change the forum levels to rank though, would cause a lot less confusion.