TOPIC: True Grind Post-Mortem (2014 GenCon)

Incognito wrote:

TJRat wrote: Oh, Eric! How could you forge the epic Team Yeti run Thursday night (10pm)? We ran hardcore and fought our way to the oasis with time remaining; no casualties. Was it our double- Mad Evoker maelstrom, or our catchy tune on the Horns of Blasting that made you want to forget us?

Oh I certainly remember Team Yeti! Who, despite the namesake, had no Cloaks of the Yeti and as a result many of you dropped your weapons repeatedly!

However, you guys did end up running the Grind on Normal difficulty (which I thought was surprising since you were definitely statted for at least Hardcore).

For example, your "average AC" was 27.3, compared to the Hardcore TPK run which had an "average AC" of 22.5.

So it was no surprise that Normal was a cakewalk for the Yetis!

I'm still not quite sure why we ran it on normal instead of Hardcore. I think we could have defeated Hardcore... obviously with a much higher chance of casualties. I think we had a couple that preferred normal, so that is the route we went... regardless we had a good time.

Incognito wrote:
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your perspective), not a single party brought with them a 2010 Detect Illusion scroll. It pays to be prepared!

I was going to attempt to use Lenses of Clear Sight on the dopple (not certain if it would work) when I remembered I was the druid and was wearing the Lenses of Divine Sight.

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your perspective), not a single party brought with them a 2010 Detect Illusion scroll. It pays to be prepared!

I was going to attempt to use Lenses of Clear Sight on the dopple (not certain if it would work) when I remembered I was the druid and was wearing the Lenses of Divine Sight.

Lenses of Clear Sight would not have helped against the Doppelganger since his Change Shape ability was not a Mirror Image, Invisibility or Displacement (maybe if there existed a hypothetical Relic/Legendary Lenses of True Sight). But the Lenses of Clear Sight would have helped against the final battle against the Rakshasa (allowing you to always target the correct one).

Chris Von Wahlde wrote:

Incognito wrote:

TJRat wrote: Oh, Eric! How could you forge the epic Team Yeti run Thursday night (10pm)? We ran hardcore and fought our way to the oasis with time remaining; no casualties. Was it our double- Mad Evoker maelstrom, or our catchy tune on the Horns of Blasting that made you want to forget us?

Oh I certainly remember Team Yeti! Who, despite the namesake, had no Cloaks of the Yeti and as a result many of you dropped your weapons repeatedly!

However, you guys did end up running the Grind on Normal difficulty (which I thought was surprising since you were definitely statted for at least Hardcore).

For example, your "average AC" was 27.3, compared to the Hardcore TPK run which had an "average AC" of 22.5.

So it was no surprise that Normal was a cakewalk for the Yetis!

I'm still not quite sure why we ran it on normal instead of Hardcore. I think we could have defeated Hardcore... obviously with a much higher chance of casualties. I think we had a couple that preferred normal, so that is the route we went... regardless we had a good time.

..and a 'good time' is the goal. Honestly, I thought we had moved from nightmare to hardcore - obviously we were discomboobulated a little since two yetis were still being digested from the previous run.

I think normal, while not as much a challenge, still provided a great time. I really don't care what our stats showed; it's more about what the players wanted or felt ready for, mentally and equipment-wise.

And let me take this opportunity to clear up a misconception. Those who wear yeti cloaks obviously hunt yetis; I saw one guy on a viper run wearing my Uncle George!! We had words... that group had one casualty on their run, and it had nothing to do with Vipron!

And the cold you experience at night in most deserts doesn't even compare to the cold you face in a climate similar to 2012's setting. I went from Arctic training in Iceland to Operation Desert Shield in two weeks; I know whereof I speak. So it's not out of the ordinary for a group to not plan on freezing conditions. Having said that, it added to the fun and I certainly support the Grind creators to design the run however they feel will challenge a party.

TJRat wrote: ..and a 'good time' is the goal. Honestly, I thought we had moved from nightmare to hardcore - obviously we were discomboobulated a little since two yetis were still being digested from the previous run.

Yeah, different people enjoy different things. Same players preferred a more laid back, relaxed environment that can come from lower difficulty levels. Others want a more intense experience where they just barely snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Some players don't mind (and will actually enjoy) a memorable death, while others feel disappointed if they die, regardless of the difficulty level. Some players feel that consumables exist to be used, while others feel it is wasteful to spend them and would rather convert them into trade items.

In short, different strokes for different folks!

I think normal, while not as much a challenge, still provided a great time. I really don't care what our stats showed; it's more about what the players wanted or felt ready for, mentally and equipment-wise.

Glad you had a good time, which is what really counts!

And let me take this opportunity to clear up a misconception. Those who wear yeti cloaks obviously hunt yetis; I saw one guy on a viper run wearing my Uncle George!! We had words... that group had one casualty on their run, and it had nothing to do with Vipron!

Thanks for the clarification. So...in the future, that means my minions and I should get a free Yeti Cloak for each member of Team Yeti that we defeat?

And the cold you experience at night in most deserts doesn't even compare to the cold you face in a climate similar to 2012's setting. I went from Arctic training in Iceland to Operation Desert Shield in two weeks; I know whereof I speak. So it's not out of the ordinary for a group to not plan on freezing conditions. Having said that, it added to the fun and I certainly support the Grind creators to design the run however they feel will challenge a party.

Fair enough.

But don't forget that Antarctica is technically a "desert" too!

And there are cold sand deserts like the Gobi Desert!

And let me take this opportunity to clear up a misconception. Those who wear yeti cloaks obviously hunt yetis; I saw one guy on a viper run wearing my Uncle George!! We had words... that group had one casualty on their run, and it had nothing to do with Vipron!

Thanks for the clarification. So...in the future, that means my minions and I should get a free Yeti Cloak for each member of Team Yeti that we defeat?

...Um, Eric? Good luck with this one!

And the cold you experience at night in most deserts doesn't even compare to the cold you face in a climate similar to 2012's setting. I went from Arctic training in Iceland to Operation Desert Shield in two weeks; I know whereof I speak. So it's not out of the ordinary for a group to not plan on freezing conditions. Having said that, it added to the fun and I certainly support the Grind creators to design the run however they feel will challenge a party.

Fair enough.

But don't forget that Antarctica is technically a "desert" too!

And there are cold sand deserts like the Gobi Desert![/quote]

Gobi? Been there, done that. Closer than Arabia, for sure, but not Arctic.

So, lesson learned from Grind this year? If we're headed into the UnderdDark, bring sunscreen!!

- One thing I enjoyed about Grind was making a lot of "generally useless" tokens actually helpful. For example, due to the environmental rules, Sandstorm Goggles, Sandstorm Cloaks, and Shoes of Sand Walking were actually useful! There was one time when a player's Spectre's Spectacles saved down from the Umber Hulk's gaze. And there was a single Elven Illusionist who used his Gaze Reflection spell for protection. The Sunday 9 AM run had some "survivors" from a prior, harrowing expedition and apparently got a bunch of them to wear Rings of Direction to protect them from Confusion. Never thought those Rings of Direction would be useful, eh?

- There was also a Team Bulette who were tickled pink to see their Bulette mascot/opponent. There have also been mentions of the Sharknado run, where a Druid with Wild Vestments + Iridescent Spindle used Leaping Attack Potions along with a Polymorph Shark potion to go toe-to-toe against the Bulette. Technically this doesn't work in TD but Grind is a bit more flexible so I just decided to roll with it.

- Another interesting situation was a run where the Bard died. It turns out that several members of the team could speak with dead (presumably with a Shade Cloak) and asked if they could still benefit from Bardsong. Although I'm pretty sure it doesn't work officially (a ruling would be nice), I thought I'd allow it since it was such a creative idea. Unfortunately, giving the dead Bard a +3 Rod of Niltongue might make it a little too easy so I doubt the official ruling will allow it.

Sorry if I missed it in the rest of the thread, but did anyone ever try to disbelieve the illusionary warrior?

I'm thinking I might have to do that at the start of every grind room from now on.

Xavon wrote: Sorry if I missed it in the rest of the thread, but did anyone ever try to disbelieve the illusionary warrior?

I'm thinking I might have to do that at the start of every grind room from now on.

I recall someone trying to disbelieve something (not the illusionary warrior) but it didn't help.

Also, there was a Druid who tried to make friends with the Rakshasa by "communicating with animals" but all that earned him was a nasty gash in his neck!

These stories are hilarious! I HAVE to try True Grind next year!

Incognito wrote:
Lenses of Clear Sight would not have helped against the Doppelganger since his Change Shape ability was not a Mirror Image, Invisibility or Displacement (maybe if there existed a hypothetical Relic/Legendary Lenses of True Sight). But the Lenses of Clear Sight would have helped against the final battle against the Rakshasa (allowing you to always target the correct one).

Unfortunately, I distinctly remember overhearing that the player using them in my run was told that he didn't see anything special while using them against the Rakshasa.

Raywind wrote:

Incognito wrote:
Lenses of Clear Sight would not have helped against the Doppelganger since his Change Shape ability was not a Mirror Image, Invisibility or Displacement (maybe if there existed a hypothetical Relic/Legendary Lenses of True Sight). But the Lenses of Clear Sight would have helped against the final battle against the Rakshasa (allowing you to always target the correct one).

Unfortunately, I distinctly remember overhearing that the player using them in my run was told that he didn't see anything special while using them against the Rakshasa.

Are you sure it was the Lenses of Clear Sight?

There is also a Charm of the Mirage (+1 to saves vs illusion) which gave a subtle (non-obvious) bonus. I know there was one player who asked about that and I told him he didn't see anything special, but that there was an unknown beneficial effect.