TOPIC: Reviews and feedback

And please don't take that as an attack against you Mitch, I loved the people in the runs this year. I was upset with the actual puzzle design and functionality. The Dms were all great!

cdsmith wrote: The biggest problem was that it distracted people from the puzzle. Everyone stopped working on the puzzle and started healing. Maybe split it in two and move the first hit to 8 minutes and then the second at the 1 to go minute mark.

But isn't it also the players' fault for being so easily distracted?

On Grind I often see parties spend far too much time discussing healing when they are already running short on time.

Another common case is when a monster hits with an attack that requires a saving throw. (Say a bite that requires a poison save). Oftentimes, I hand the die to the player and ask him/her to roll, but they waste a minute fiddling around with the HP tracker before finally getting to roll. Of course it is your time and if you want to spend it inefficiently, that is your choice. As a result, in such cases, I have started the habit of revealing the amount of damage only after the saving throw (to speed things along).

I also see a lot of players waste time when I ask them to roll a die and they ask why. If I ask you to roll a die, go ahead and roll it. And if you want to argue about whether or not you need to roll (and in some cases you might not), we can handle it after you've rolled. It is easier to discuss that stuff during the players' turn (when others are sliding) than during the monster's turn (when other players are waiting to slide).

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mitch wrote: I haven't run TD since I began volunteering, so my feedback only corresponds with Room 6 Zephyr Puzzle which I GM'd all week. I had a blast again, but there was a noticeable level of frustration for a large majority of the parties that ran through the dungeon. "Shit. Tubes again?" was an oft muttered comment as groups entered the room. From my side of things, I understand the frustration with trying to connect all the tubes in the allotted amount of time -- ~12 minutes is pressing anyone to get through that. However, on the TD side of things, I really enjoyed the mechanics of it and that it pressed the groups to think about the puzzle in a different way. There were a lot of unique approaches to it throughout the weekend.

The few times there were technical difficulties with the hoses (air not blowing out more so than the two PVC joints that would fall out/hose clamps coming undone) were frustrating on my end of things, but I did what I could to accommodate getting everything in working order while the ACs or Techs came to fix them (I haven't mentioned this, but Brian and Jeanette [sp] are stellar coordinates -- I've worked with them the last two years as well and they're always on top of their game when it comes to anything that springs up. And the Techs were fantastic about checking with me/what needed to be fixed based on what I was keeping an eye on.) I do want to throw it out there as well that whenever anyone raised a question about the hoses themselves, I made sure to check them. None of the minute leaks effected the outcome of the puzzle while I was in there -- I troubleshot it during one of my bubbles because I was concerned about that as well.

All of that said, I had several groups that ran through the room that could not complete it in time but thanked me because they had a great time trying to figure it out once they started to understand the ways it could work out (including several people who told me that they really enjoyed the puzzle even though it was so difficult).

Had we actually HAD 12 minutes to solve the puzzle I would have been fine with it. We didn't. Given the *IMO completely unecessary* 20 on 20 off BS you had just under 6 minutes to complete the puzzle. One bad decision from the group and you were done. One person not checking fast enough and you were done. Spending HALF of the puzzle standing around doing NOTHING while waiting to be able to turn it back on and ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING was an extreme Negative Play Experience.

Had it not been a treasure room and had the tubes not been leaking air, and had the DM of the room been given the solution to verify if things weren't working I would have been OK with it. But Mechanical issues coupled with DMs not being able to verify functionality and loss of numerous treasure pulls just really made the run extremely negative for me.

Completely agree... considering my groups did this multiple times and were only able to solve it once, and still have no clue what we did to solve it is a problem.

Incognito wrote:

cdsmith wrote: The biggest problem was that it distracted people from the puzzle. Everyone stopped working on the puzzle and started healing. Maybe split it in two and move the first hit to 8 minutes and then the second at the 1 to go minute mark.

But isn't it also the players' fault for being so easily distracted?

On Grind I often see parties spend far too much time discussing healing when they are already running short on time.

Another common case is when a monster hits with an attack that requires a saving throw. (Say a bite that requires a poison save). Oftentimes, I hand the die to the player and ask him/her to roll, but they waste a minute fiddling around with the HP tracker before finally getting to roll. Of course it is your time and if you want to spend it inefficiently, that is your choice. As a result, in such cases, I have started the habit of revealing the amount of damage only after the saving throw (to speed things along).

I also see a lot of players waste time when I ask them to roll a die and they ask why. If I ask you to roll a die, go ahead and roll it. And if you want to argue about whether or not you need to roll (and in some cases you might not), we can handle it after you've rolled. It is easier to discuss that stuff during the players' turn (when others are sliding) than during the monster's turn (when other players are waiting to slide).

Agreed... I had many groups come through my room and spend 2+ minutes healing before even attempting the puzzle. This actually kept a couple groups from completing the puzzle. Time management is one of if not the most important thing in the dungeon.

Fair enough (and know I definitely don't take it personally)! I understand the level of frustration there -- the 20 on/20 off component logistically made sense with flipping a machine on/off that has an automatic fail safe, especially with the machine itself needing to be repaired in order to get it working properly (whether it be gears grinding or the machine needing to cool down from being overworked), but the actual time constraint aspect of it tended to lead to more people randomly pulling off a tube that was already in a correct place without the rest of the party knowing because they were discussing/waiting for the machine to turn back on. There were a number of times where I had to kick myself not to say something because a group was a couple of hoses away and then decided to start over when the fail safe kicked on with only a minute or two left in the Dungeon.

Side note: I tried to make sure that I was keeping a close tab on anytime the switch was "thrown," including when a group came into a room. I often delayed healing for a minute (often saying that they would be able to hold off for a moment) or had the cleric/druid follow me to the opposite corner so I could keep an eye on it, that way the group could get started as soon as it was flipped (also including keeping an eye on the rogue box from a distance so that the puzzle mechanic wasn't stalled at the expense of something else occurring in the room, which meant the liftonium pumping beyond the 20 second fail safe when it was necessary). Moving the switch to the opposite wall it was Thursday/Friday morning helped substantially with this though.

Review - I volunteered over the weekend for my 3rd year and from that end I want to thank those above me that kept us lowers ready for the players at nearly all times (from the front end of the dungeon) and ready and willing to help and answer questions. Most hick-ups when I were working were minor and ironed out quickly. I so very much enjoy checking in players and I hope to continued to do that for years to come. Also, players, thank you sooo much for quickly listening to myself or one of the others when coming up to the table, we tried to make check in go as smoothly as possible, for you as well as for us. And everyone was so nice and awesome, thank you for that!

As far as running, I was able to do 3 of the 4 dungeons this year (missed Viper Puzzle) and goodness, so much awesome going on there! The first group I ran with we had a great group that were more than ready to go (Zephyr Puzzle), included another volunteer as well and I had a blast! One of the puzzles we tripped up on and I would say maybe needed a tad more explained about it (room 4? with the pvc tubes), by the time we had started to figure out how it worked we were out of time. (When I ran through on Combat side we all got down to work and still couldn't do it because we had run out of tubes). Room 7 blew my mind! That has to have been one of the coolest things I've seen personally in my 3 years of runs. Though we did have a smooth flight. My second group had a few friends I had run with before and they convinced the group to run on Hardcore, I wasn't thrilled about, but I promised them I wouldn't object. It was still fun, though it became more stressful for me personally even up to the end where our flight was far from smooth, I would admit it was neat to see it from a good and bad point of view and can show a vast difference in what can happen. Last run was on Viper Combat with the same few friends and a group that seemed more than willing to go on Nightmare. I felt the same about that as I did about Hardcore. I did have fun, though I think it would have been more so had I not been so stressed about it. The 4th room monster(s)/portal was neat though, I was the bard and was able to find out the lore and had everyone attack the portal, our DM said that we were the first to actually do that all weekend (it was late Sat by the time we came though), and then our Wizard nuked the monsters with some spell/attack I didn't hear. The room before that with the eggs, that was such a neat idea and I wish that I had been running on a bit more brain power, cause I totally could have solved it. Ug, regretting that. And the room with the sand was awesome a sweet idea even if it was a bit gimmicky. We died in the final room as the monster got initiative on us, and that is really where I had the least fun, I like being useful and I didn't get the chance to as I was too squishy. The huge real life monster was wonderful to look at and I have to thank everyone that are in those or work them, I spent some time in the Draco-lich and I know how hard it can be!

Feedback - Over all it felt like the dungeons themselves were really stepped up this year, good on that. Some technical issues, but those can happen any time any where. The front check in is great, and having the store there is a wonderful idea as well, TD may want to think about adding in a small separate from check in ones as people not going for a run were having trouble finding them. I did hear a few people say that they missed the tavern and this year there seemed to be a lack of front where people could ask questions or look around and see a bit more of what was going on. I know space is an issue, but it didn't feel terribly friend when one walked in the door. Oh, XP, the epilogue room was great! We could get our token stuff, hear a bit about what would be happening next (and thanks for the hint on next year) and then getting out code and turning in the clips, lights and cards. I put up my XP today and that WAS the best way to go. *thumbs up* The photo opp as well, it's a great chance for people to exchange info for keeping in touch. I need to get my photos up soon.

That's all I've got off the top of my head. Thanks for all the memories!

Angela Melzak wrote: The 4th room monster(s)/portal was neat though, I was the bard and was able to find out the lore and had everyone attack the portal, our DM said that we were the first to actually do that all weekend (it was late Sat by the time we came though), and then our Wizard nuked the monsters with some spell/attack I didn't hear.

Could you please clarify this?

Which room was this with the Portal? I don't remember one except for the very last room on the puzzle side... tho the DMs may have described a portal in other rooms and I missed it.

If you don't mind, I'd love to know what the Bardic Lore was.

Room 4 on Viper combat was the Sarcophagus room with the undead, I think that is to which she speaks. Now I'm kicking myself for not doing some lore while in that room as the Bard It was one of the rooms we figured out late and couldn't get through before the push.

Raven wrote:

Angela Melzak wrote: The 4th room monster(s)/portal was neat though, I was the bard and was able to find out the lore and had everyone attack the portal, our DM said that we were the first to actually do that all weekend (it was late Sat by the time we came though), and then our Wizard nuked the monsters with some spell/attack I didn't hear.

Could you please clarify this?

Which room was this with the Portal? I don't remember one except for the very last room on the puzzle side... tho the DMs may have described a portal in other rooms and I missed it.

If you don't mind, I'd love to know what the Bardic Lore was.

Skeleton Sarcophagus?

I believe the skeletons' sarcophagus was described to us as a portal, hence why they kept pouring out.

Aaaah, the Sarcophagus. That makes sense.

Yeah, we didn't use Bardic Lore, but figured it out on our own because of the Rectangular area marked on the combat board. I didn't hear DMs describe it as a Portal at any point.. it was just the Sarcophagus.

I loved the effect though... constant stream of undead coming out, and you have to destroy their spawn point before you can make any headway killing the monsters.

Reminded me of playing Gauntlet!

Raven wrote: Aaaah, the Sarcophagus. That makes sense.

Yeah, we didn't use Bardic Lore, but figured it out on our own because of the Rectangular area marked on the combat board. I didn't hear DMs describe it as a Portal at any point.. it was just the Sarcophagus.

I loved the effect though... constant stream of undead coming out, and you have to destroy their spawn point before you can make any headway killing the monsters.

Reminded me of playing Gauntlet!

Red Wizard needs food badly!