TOPIC: True Dungeon Basic (or True Dungeon 101)

I don't think I said they had to sell to fund their hobby, I meant to say some do, and some more than others. I know for a fact there is at least one onyx buyer who wouldn't be if hecouldn't recoup a large part of his investment each year. Others may be more affluent.

And yes, TD sells out. I wasn't saying we need to attract more newbies. Yes they are coming, or trying to; I was saying we need to make room for them. The fact it sold out means some got turned away or didnt have as many runs as they'd have wanted, and the more people play the more tokens they want.

Sorry Brad I missed the word some in some buyers. You did say it I just missed it.

Currently though the only way I see we can make room for another dungeon is to lose a dungeon for us. This is based on the statement Jeff made on the forums about there being no more tickets available next year. (At least I am pretty sure he made it here and not while we were chatting during tear down.) But let's make pretend there was room and volunteers for a 5th dungeon. I bet you it will still have many folks that have already played TD before, especially if it was at a reduced cost. Even if you limited it to generics only. There would be a long line for those wanting run through it by new people and those that have been playing for some time. I know I would line up and wait a couple hours to do it because I have only been playing 4 years and haven't seen a lot. I have wait listed for 2 hours to go through a dungeon I have seen. I think the TD brand is that hot that folks that already know the brand are going to want to do as much TD as they can, at least I know I am. The new special dungeon for big buyers I think is proof of that. There is already discussions if it fair to reward a dungeon to big time buyers. There is talk of how high the limit should be.

Again I know I am saying this all from a slightly selfish perspective. I don't want to give up my TD experience to someone else. If there is are the resource for an additional dungeon or 2. Then I want to do them as well and I think many other non-new folks would too.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Something that occurs to me is that some big-token buyers must fund at least part of their purchases by reselling a portion, or even a majority, of what they get. (I know I do.) And they sell their wares to players who don't spend as much. Why would an onyx buyer purchase ANYTHING current from another one?

So if we encourage larger and larger buys, and convert small buyers into medium buyers, and medium buyers into big ones, then to whom are these people going to sell? Or are they going to decrease their orders? So to what extend would we increase token sales as opposed to just shifting them around?

Actually what I think is being encouraged is small buyers and medium buyers to get together and pool resources to become bigger buyers. The actual amount of tokens sold is the same, but it lets the smaller buyers split perks usually only available to big buyers. The more I look at it, the more either doing that or buying big then selling on the secondary market makes sense from an economic sense.

jedibcg wrote: @Robert. I think you missed what I said though about that currently we don't need more new players. I know that statement seems ridiculous. But the fact is that TD sold out again. And there were still people that wanted to play that couldn't. I understand that having more people interested in TD is a good thing. Currently though 800 runs is the most that TD can support with the space and volunteers we have. I do believe that at some point that will go up, but until then I would rather TD focus on the ticket holders of those 8k tickets than potential ticket holders.
It is not as easy as saying we will stick another dungeon here. To add a dungeon for new people would take a dungeon away from others basically is what I am saying. Again I am not saying screw all new people. Just that there doesn't seem to be a need to draw new people any. They are already coming.

I completely get where you are coming from. I also believe square footage and number of volunteers/actors are the two biggest limited resources in the game. If the game grew to the point where additional space is warranted, that would help on square footage (although that will always be a major constraint as the event will grow into any new space too.)

Figuring out the ideal allocation of resources (especially floor space) is what I see as one of the biggest challenges.

My point on new players is this:
1) A lot of people want to try, but limited runs turned many away. These people who were turned away were future potential token buyers who now will find somewhere else to spend their money. They are also potential volunteers in the future, who could help solve the second most limited resource.
2) At least some of these new players trying true dungeon for the first time, are having worse than ideal experiences, since the current setup is really geared towards returning players and those who can schedule their runs in advance.

The idea of the new player dungeon is to actually alleviate congestion. By offering a smaller dungeon geared towards new players, it means they aren't immediately competing for the bigger dungeon spots (at least year 1), while at the same time expanding the player base. If the new player dungeon sells out, in addition to the other dungeons continuing to sell out, then that may be the sign that it's time to expand yet again, especailly if that new player base is increasing token sales to help support things.

So while I understand the current constraints limit the number of players in the main dungeon, I see this as a way to expand the player base by giving them a less resource intensive option, and helping to get an idea of how much growth is actually being turned away right now.

jedibcg wrote: Sorry Brad I missed the word some in some buyers. You did say it I just missed it.

Currently though the only way I see we can make room for another dungeon is to lose a dungeon for us. This is based on the statement Jeff made on the forums about there being no more tickets available next year. (At least I am pretty sure he made it here and not while we were chatting during tear down.) But let's make pretend there was room and volunteers for a 5th dungeon. I bet you it will still have many folks that have already played TD before, especially if it was at a reduced cost. Even if you limited it to generics only. There would be a long line for those wanting run through it by new people and those that have been playing for some time. I know I would line up and wait a couple hours to do it because I have only been playing 4 years and haven't seen a lot. I have wait listed for 2 hours to go through a dungeon I have seen. I think the TD brand is that hot that folks that already know the brand are going to want to do as much TD as they can, at least I know I am. The new special dungeon for big buyers I think is proof of that. There is already discussions if it fair to reward a dungeon to big time buyers. There is talk of how high the limit should be.

Again I know I am saying this all from a slightly selfish perspective. I don't want to give up my TD experience to someone else. If there is are the resource for an additional dungeon or 2. Then I want to do them as well and I think many other non-new folks would too.

As I said elsewhere, I absolutely think square footage is the most valuable resource limiting TD expansion right now. The only reason I made this proposal is due to the talk of a 4 room retro dungeon for whales (to coin the Vegas term.)

If there is room to create a 4 room dungeon to support 6 runs, my proposal is that the same square footage could be used to 150-200 runs geared towards new players. You want to keep the big spenders happy, but 150 runs of 10 people at $25 a pop adds up fast too, and attracts more potential token buyers, possibly even more future big spenders.

The big resource difference I see between the whale plan and the new player plan is the number of hours of volunteer time. Getting actors/dms to support 4 rooms for 150 runs is a lot more than for 6.

I guess the big question is whether the dungeon could be set up to support both, with certain periods set up for planar stuff, and certain periods for noob runs. Then you can get the best of both worlds, likely just needing to switch out some traps, monsters, and actors.

Ok, I think I need to write to Jeff directly, because I was just inspired on something to make things truly special for the whale run, while using the same rooms. (It does have added costs for setup though.) I just don't want to leak the shock value of it, if he ran with any of it.

We don't want to lose any of the four we have now, I agree. And yes, what I'm thinking would require 5 rooms, maybe 4.5, but only newbies would want to do it.

TD Easy Mode would use pre-built characters and a pre-printed party card, no outside tokens allowed. The only token that leaves the vestibule is your green weapon or scroll and a Frostberry. It is a one-hour event using props and sets from the previous year, gives no XP, no completion token and one treasure token and a generic Survivor button. There's nothing for collectors, and no challenge in this one-hour non-lethal event, and since most of the coaching happens in the dungeon itself it will be boring for experienced players, specially since the puzzles and critters are recycled from the last two years.

The only thing going for it is its cheap - maybe $20 because its all reused and dry few tokens required.

So why do you care?

Because it siphons off new players and families with younger kids from the main events. You don't need a coach because the card is already filled in. One DM and maybe a traveling blue hand handles a single party from start to finish, and they don't even visit the XP desk. So I doesn't add more tickets to the four main tracks but it could free up hundreds, even thousands of slots otherwise taken by newbies. And it's scalable. Just plan for one run an hour (2 volunteers per shift, about 400 tickets) and if it sells out find a couple of people and run two an hour.

So it pays for itself and targets a small market and frees up more tickets for the hardcore players. But yes, it requires space for a half-dungeon and I know real estate is at a premium.

I would still want to go through this dungeon. TD is just that cool that I would want to see it. Granted depending on what it is I might only want to do it once and never again, but I cannot guarantee that. I don't do runs for the tokens or the collectibles or the XP. I do it for the experience of playing TD. Often with lots of my friends but at times with completely new people and other forumites. I would be I am not the only one. The tokens, collectibles, and XP are nice, but that is not what makes me go through the same dungeon multiple times with different parties.

Brad Mortensen wrote: We don't want to lose any of the four we have now, I agree. And yes, what I'm thinking would require 5 rooms, maybe 4.5, but only newbies would want to do it.

TD Easy Mode would use pre-built characters and a pre-printed party card, no outside tokens allowed. The only token that leaves the vestibule is your green weapon or scroll and a Frostberry. It is a one-hour event using props and sets from the previous year, gives no XP, no completion token and one treasure token and a generic Survivor button. There's nothing for collectors, and no challenge in this one-hour non-lethal event, and since most of the coaching happens in the dungeon itself it will be boring for experienced players, specially since the puzzles and critters are recycled from the last two years.

The only thing going for it is its cheap - maybe $20 because its all reused and dry few tokens required.

So why do you care?

Because it siphons off new players and families with younger kids from the main events. You don't need a coach because the card is already filled in. One DM and maybe a traveling blue hand handles a single party from start to finish, and they don't even visit the XP desk. So I doesn't add more tickets to the four main tracks but it could free up hundreds, even thousands of slots otherwise taken by newbies. And it's scalable. Just plan for one run an hour (2 volunteers per shift, about 400 tickets) and if it sells out find a couple of people and run two an hour.

So it pays for itself and targets a small market and frees up more tickets for the hardcore players. But yes, it requires space for a half-dungeon and I know real estate is at a premium.

I think you summed up my suggestion perfectly.

I have only one last comment just because I want to pick on Brad about this one. How would 400 tickets free up thousands of slots...hehehe. I understand what you mean though and I do like that more room for me, but I still would want to do this dungeon as well. TD currently is only once a year so I want to do as much of it as I can in all the different forms it has.