TOPIC: Feedback Needed on Relic/Legend Event Idea

George Pratt wrote:

As a general concept I really like the idea. However there seem to be some issues.

#1. If you do this (and create a lot of +3 gear) people will start complaining that nightmare is too easy.

A. See below.


#2. This will speed up Mudflation significantly. Blue will be the new Purple.

A. Hmmm...good points. I can see how this increase in +3 stuff could be less than ideal. How about this idea?

We make the new 2014 Relics equal to the URs in existence, but also make them have the planar travel ability. So, any Relics made in 2014+ would be of the UR level only with the planar travel ability. Legendaries 2014+ would be in the +3 range with the planar travel ability.

Relics and Legendaries from 2012-13 are still eligible to be used in the event, too.




#3. Either you are going to have to add a TON of Legendary types of weapons and armor (which will make #1 and #2 go even faster) or you are going to have the problem of groups that have invulnerable plate wearers and everyone else in robes.


A. See above. In 2014, we can add some UR-level Relics with the planar travel ability like maybe:

Best Heavy Armor
Best Fighter-type 1-handed Weapon
Best Light Armor
Best 1-handed Weapon any class can use (club?)

In 2015, we can add more needed equipment like Shields and Ranged weapons. The Legendaries would be the above -- only +3 equivalent, which I think is okay.


That will require a major change to how the game is run. The DMs will need to be forced to have some restriction on who the mobs can attack. We may have to add something like DND 3.5 has with marching order and most people doing ranged combat.

A. I think this point is moot with the above items in 2014.



#4. Every class that doesn't get a Legendary weapon is going to complain. People buying Legendary weapon they are going to want the best their class can use. I can't imagine buying a Legendary dagger for my Druid.

A. It will take a few years, but they will come.


#5. I agree with Raven, going to hard to keep the people who do not qualify from buying a ticket.

A. I think you can regsiter an event, but not have it listed in the pre-reg system as a "buyable" event. Since each Cubic Gate lasts only one year, we will know exactly who can play. We just accept Generic Tickets, and we allow people to sign up for a slot much like the Golden Ticket runs are done in the Forums. I can't imagine more than 40 people being able (or willing) to afford the Cubic Gate token...so it should not be that hard to keep un-qualified people from getting in.

Jeff Martin wrote:

jedibcg wrote: The cube could make the price of tokens go back up depending on what it takes. 1 of each Monster Trophy? Lots of Gold? How about some nice precious completion trophies. Ohhh and a volunteer trophy to show your commitment to TD (either be buying or volunteering). This could get real interesting. Or it could be really easy. Jeff the ball is in your court. I would wagger that everyone and their mother would want to do this event. It is just a question on who can afford it. Those that cannot will be upset and those that can might think the price is too high, but you will have those that will do whatever it takes to do more TD. You have a solid product that we want to buy.

It needs to be expensive, and if we go with the "need a new one every year model" then we don't have to allow for other Relics to be traded in for a Cubic Gate. My guess is that the Cubic Gate relic token needs to be fairly expensive (and a new one needed each year) to keep the numbers down and manageable -- and to hit the sweet spot of rewarding the big token buyers.

Two questions come to mind. How expensive is "needs to be expensive?" and When yuo say relics to be traded in for a cubic gate are you saying I would lose my girdle of frost giant strength to get the gate? That would be pretty expensive. I guess if your target audience is 6 than that might be about right. I guess it depends on at what level you what to be rewarding folks?

I would rather see more focus on True Grind.
i really enjoy it. But hard to get tickets because fewer and fewer slots

Raven" posted:

LOVE the idea, on principle.

Practicalities which need to be considered though. For example:

~ If you put it in GenCon's event list, total newbies WILL sign up for it. Just look at what happens with Nightmare, or what used to happen with True Arena when it required being a level 2 player. Those players will then be very disappointed if they are turned away. Plus they will have taken up a slot which can't be easily filled, if only certain token-holders may play this event. (Christopher Nieport had some good comments on this, too)

A. See previous post.


~ XP? You didn't mention XP, but if you run the event, some players will ask for/expect it. And other players will see it as rich players "buying" more XP for themselves.
If the event happens, please deal with it the same way you do True Grind: NO XP. Otherwise it creates yet another rift between new and experienced players.

A. I don't think we need XP here.


~ Completion token: Will there be a unique token or prize available for this event? Big token buyers do like their special collectibles. If you choose to make one, please be careful about what it is, how powerful it is, and who will get it (everyone? Only people who solve the final puzzle?)

A. These would be completely new tokens...only available at this event, and everyone gets one. And since you can only play once, it should be special and not need to be powerful.



~ Soul-Forging. Hm... what about those players who spend a great deal Soul-Forging a Gateway Cube, and then can't make it to GenCon? Will they be reimbursed? Will their cube (and only theirs) be transferrable to someone else? Will they be able to use it in a future year? Would it be better to make "limited edition" tokens with a number or a code on them, which are secured to a particular person but (for a fee) could be transferred to someone else?

A. To keep it manageable, we would have to be hardcore about it and only allow the person named on the token to use it. If we allowed transfers then it would be all commercial and non-fun. People would sell their Cubic Gates in July. I know people could conceivable quasi do it when creating the token in September, but they would most likely get a lot less of a price for an event 11 months away. Maybe if someone can't make it for whatever reason, they can use it the next year only -- but it would have to be arranged in advance.


~ Gear. As some folks have pointed out, some gear currently available only at UR or below is very important to the design of certain characters. Is this the year you want to print a Relic-level Bardic instrument? Relic Thieves tools*? Relic item which lets you surprise-attack first round**? Relic Potion of Polymorph for the Druid? Relic Holy Symbol?

A. I see this event as a throwback event that relies less on tokens, so it would take years before we got to the point were the above items could (if ever) be made. I think a Bard and Rogue can have a good time without the above items.



~ People have very complex GenCon schedules. If this is an event run only at (a) very specific time(s), there will be people who have very strong opinions on when it should be, or who will be vocally disappointed if they craft the stone but can't make the event time.

A. Good point. I think we would have to publish the times in September with the details. My guess is that slots would run start at 10am and 7pm Thursday through Saturday and last one hour. That gives us 60 available tickets for 2014. They would have to be given out on a first come basis, so only 60 Cubic Gates could be made. If we don't get 60 participants, then a some slots would run less than 10 players -- or we eliminate a slott or two entirely.

To sum up: LOVE the idea. Want to see it work. Need to look at a ton of factors for it to be viable.

Cool idea, Jeff!


*oooh, that makes me think: an UR which lets Rogues re-try once per box, upgradable to a Relic version whic hlets you re-try with Ektdars once/box.
Also that this would be a good time to revisit a Rogues item (Charm? Ring?) which allows surprise attack on the first round but doesn't take up the boot slot.[/quote]

Raven wrote: I LOVE the idea, on principle.

Practicalities which need to be considered though. For example:

~ If you put it in GenCon's event list, total newbies WILL sign up for it. Just look at what happens with Nightmare, or what used to happen with True Arena when it required being a level 2 player. Those players will then be very disappointed if they are turned away. Plus they will have taken up a slot which can't be easily filled, if only certain token-holders may play this event. (Christopher Nieport had some good comments on this, too)

~ XP? You didn't mention XP, but if you run the event, some players will ask for/expect it. And other players will see it as rich players "buying" more XP for themselves.
If the event happens, please deal with it the same way you do True Grind: NO XP. Otherwise it creates yet another rift between new and experienced players.

~ Completion token: Will there be a unique token or prize available for this event? Big token buyers do like their special collectibles. If you choose to make one, please be careful about what it is, how powerful it is, and who will get it (everyone? Only people who solve the final puzzle?)

~ Soul-Forging. Hm... what about those players who spend a great deal Soul-Forging a Gateway Cube, and then can't make it to GenCon? Will they be reimbursed? Will their cube (and only theirs) be transferrable to someone else? Will they be able to use it in a future year? Would it be better to make "limited edition" tokens with a number or a code on them, which are secured to a particular person but (for a fee) could be transferred to someone else?

~ Gear. As some folks have pointed out, some gear currently available only at UR or below is very important to the design of certain characters. Is this the year you want to print a Relic-level Bardic instrument? Relic Thieves tools*? Relic item which lets you surprise-attack first round**? Relic Potion of Polymorph for the Druid? Relic Holy Symbol?

~ People have very complex GenCon schedules. If this is an event run only at (a) very specific time(s), there will be people who have very strong opinions on when it should be, or who will be vocally disappointed if they craft the stone but can't make the event time.

To sum up: LOVE the idea. Want to see it work. Need to look at a ton of factors for it to be viable.

Cool idea, Jeff!

I agree with, and would like to Second, everything Raven just stated here.

I would like to add:
-I agree with the idea that each Cubic Gate must be made each year and is only good for one year. I do NOT agree with the idea that they must also be expensive. People who have the Relic or Legendary equipment to even make this run feasible have already spent a *boat load* of $$$ making said Relics and Legendary items. If this is a "reward" for making all those Relics and Legendary items, don't make us pay through the nose to do this event. I for one would *not* do it if the cost to make the Cubic Gate each year is more than the cost of UR item, about $100.
-Relics and Legendary items already cost too much to make right now, IMHO. This year we had the Greater Cloak of Destiny come in at about $490 in terms of cost-to-transmute, at the "cheap" end. Lower the cost of this vast new horde of Relic items down to about $350 to $400 each in cost-to-transmute, and this kind of event where only Relics, Legendary and other items marked for "planar travel" work... then the event and all the transmutation costs become more viable.
-If you don't want to make vast new hordes of Relic items available this year (for 2014), mark some of the regular 2014 items as viable for "planar travel". *Then* over the course of the next few years you can release Relic items based on those "planar travel" items from each year.
-I want to "Third" Raven's idea of making key items for certain classes viable for planar travel for this event, ie- Rogue, Cleric, Bard, Druid items....

I like the idea of this event overall. I do *not* like the idea of having to pull together a large number of Relic transmutations right away over the next year for this event. I would much prefer that some regular 2014 items are marked for "planar travel" this year, and then those could be transmuted into Relics over the next few years. Please, please, please... spread these transmutation costs out over the next few years.

I wonder how much you have to spend to be in the top 60 spenders each year? I know a few people that would definitely make the list. After maybe 10 I have no idea how far down the is list I fall. Hmmm will have to wait and see what it takes to make the gateway token and decide from there I guess.

Raven wrote: Also, just as a question: Is this the sort of event you could consider having at a Token Release party (either instead of, or in addition to, GenCon)? Many of the big buyers come to those events, and the events tend be much more low-stress, and haven't got the same time pressures as GenCon.

I love this idea, something like this would do a lot to help justify working towards making both the gate and the trip to some of the non gencon events and it would give you a lot more control over the venue.

Jeff Martin wrote: A. Hmmm...good points. I can see how this increase in +3 stuff could be less than ideal. How about this idea?

We make the new 2014 Relics equal to the URs in existence, but also make them have the planar travel ability. So, any Relics made in 2014+ would be of the UR level only with the planar travel ability. Legendaries 2014+ would be in the +3 range with the planar travel ability.

Relics and Legendaries from 2012-13 are still eligible to be used in the event, too.

I really like this idea, it would be a great way to reprint some of the really iconic items for people willing to put in the work to get them without putting them into a regular set and hurting values.

One solution to the worries of power-creep and a bigger push to make more relics/legendaries, would be to limit the number of items you can bring through the planar gate with you. Perhaps only 3 or 4 items? That way there won't be as much of a balance issue and you won't need to worry much about scaling as the years go by and a wider variety of applicable tokens come into existence.

What about something like N relics per gate. So if you wanted to bring more relics you would need to make more gates or upgrade to the legendary gate.

Picc wrote: What about something like N relics per gate. So if you wanted to bring more relics you would need to make more gates or upgrade to the legendary gate.

Hmmmmmm... interesting idea. You could use this N number of gates idea as a way to add play levels to these planar dimensions the same way we have different play levels in the regular TD runs now. One gate allows so many relics to travel and you play at level X. Two gates... three gates... up to maybe say 4 gates? Hmmmmmmmmmm.... again... interesting idea.

as a thought how much was the adventures guild used?
I was not there much but rarely saw it filled.

cycle out the adventures guild badge and reuse this space maybe?

that could also link up with the gate item, one per 2 grand spent

These are all good posts! Thank you. I will stew on your ideas over night. Time for bed!

I just want to say that my ultimate goal here is to attract new big token buyers while keeping the older big token buyers happy. A secondary goal would be to make Relics and Legendaries more cool to reward the older big token buyers.

Perhaps the easiest solution is just to re-define the $2K reward level, and remove the Adventurers' Guild area from the storyscape (but keep Bag Check). Replace the space instead with a mini-event only playable by AG members. It would be a 4-room retro event where you would keep one GM through the whole thing. Each AG member would get a special token they would have to turn in at the event start in order to play (like the Golden Ticket). These tokens would not be soulforged, so an $8K order would get 4 eligible admission tokens.

The event could be signed something like "Adventurers' Guild Challenge", and it could have a cool entrance that would be interesting to all passerbys.

Ticket times would be done on the Forum like the Golden Tickets and paid with generic tickets at the event.

Any tokens can be used, and the challenge level would be something like Nightmare+ so it would be a challenge. Unique participation tokens and Survivor buttons would be available...as well as a limited edition participation swag item like a tankard.

The cost of the ticket for the event would have to be the same as a regular dungeon run just to keep the cost manageable. We would have a good idea of the number of eligible AGC tokens, so we could offer enough AGC tickets to allow every AGC token to be used.

This does nothing to directly raise the perceived coolness of Relics and Legendaries (although they would help you survive), but perhaps that is something to tackle with another initiative. This seems like a more elegant proposition.

Thoughts?