TOPIC: Feedback Needed on Relic/Legend Event Idea

As for the Amulet of Oak and Torc of Natural Armor, they were printed during the years I was not able to attend GenCon, yet I have both. I rarely use either, due to the UR options I have. But at the same time, I am not willing to give them up. If I were to acquire one of them in a White back, I might be able to sell/trade the gold version to a new player or red-runner who would actually use them.

As for the power of the Torc, we also Oakskin Medallion, which has better AC at the cost of saves (and the general consensus here has always been that AC is better than saves). So the Torc isn't that powerful.

As for picking the most powerful tokens, wouldn't those be URs in all but a handful of slots? So what's the problem with making them decent rares and UCs?

The point of my comment was that one class-specific token was way over-priced relative to the other classes. I don't know that I've had said anything if there was a $50 reprint for every class. But we've gone from empty slots to some limited tokens to one class favored over others.

But I still don't like the idea of completion or combo tokens being reprinted. The original tokens were earned, and reprinting cheapens the accomplishment. Lowering their price is secondary in my mind.

But if there's a gate token for every $2k then a lot of them are going to get sold to non-whales. Are people going to run it more than once? I'm sure I won't. So those are probably the people who are going to create the most drama if one class has an advantage over others.

Mike Steele wrote:
Jim, I think the core of the complaints against using something like the Necklace of the Oak is that it is a pretty rare token that could only be gotten (I believe) by using the Amulet of Wonder on an earlier Dungeon.

Specifically that was at True Realm in 2009, and for the Director's Cut for saving Greyhawk, if I'm not mistaken. And you are right, it replaced your equipped AoW. Mine are from equipping the AoW at True Realm (as is one of Raven's, when I (temporarily) traded the AoW for a HoP on a run with her).

Jim, my concern isn't so much resale, but how people will potentially put the tokens ahead of fun and the game in choosing their classes, as was evinced by people piping up that they wanted to play barbarian. Also, how do you decide who gets the good tokens from the pooled pack, and who gets the short end of pooled tokens that don't divide by 10.

I'm all for encouraging people to stretch for a $2k order who haven't done so before, but I'd hate to have it turn into people having hurt feelings when they don't get the cool token they were hoping for and potentially feeling ill will to others in their group.

I for one can guarantee I will not pick Barbarian (of Cleric, Druid, or Rogue) regardless of what tokens they get. Of course, all of the other classes (except Bard) are ones I regularly play anyway.

Trading in a sealed pack run is great, because everyone works together, and, if you happen to get a good rare, you can keep it if you want, and no one is going to hold it against you.

If you have a pooled set, I think it sets the stage for conflict rather than team building.

If there are to be high demand reds, I'd like to see it be something like the violet prism (or faceted amber, but I like the idea of something that would tempt you to use it up), and each person gets one. That would be incentive for some, and no one leaves a loser.

Also, if the white back tokens were randomized in packs of 10 for each player (red not on top), at least if you didn't get a cool token it was random, rather than someone else screwing you out of it.

Randomized packs would also encourage people to trade with each other and team build. You could also have a more limited selection of the tokens to limit cost. Not as much flavor, since, for example, you could have 3 plate mail instead of having plate, fey plate, and dwarven plate. 5 shortbows and 5 slings, 5 clubs, and 5 shortswords, etc.

If you really wanted to tempt new players to hit the $2k mark, you could put in their pack an elixir of life, a violet prism, faceted amber, and the other things the basics of armor, melee, and ranged. Those would be tempting, and not interfere with belittling what someone accomplished with completion or combo items.

I'd still give the bard the lyre of echo's and the thief the masterwork tools, though.

was it at the 2K mark? or the 4K mark?

If it's 4 K, I'm going to have to start looking for someone to share the cost with, or at least sell off the PYP's

Maybe it wasn't made clear, probably my fault, what I believe is going to happen is that it will be very similar to a sealed pack run. Each player based on the character they choose will receive a sealed pack that contains 2 class specific tokens and 8 random tokens from the available pool of 16 general tokens. Just like a sealed pack run, each player can choose to keep all of their tokens or trade some or even give away some. It will be beneficial to the team if trading takes place as not every class is guaranteed to get a weapon or armor and nobody starts with a ranged weapon as their class specific items.

Also, please consider the overall makeup of the party. I worked very hard at balancing items from the general pool with the specific class items to create a well equipped party. It is my understanding that the difficulty level will be on the HC+ side, again I might be wrong here, but that is why I tailored the tokens to the high end of reds and greens.

As far as the Necklace of the Oak, it could be replaced with a Wicked Charm (and still maintain the theme), but then the Barbarian goes from someone who a lot want to play, to someone who very few want to play. Another possibility is to change the theme of the Barbarian, any suggestions here? (currently the Barbarian has the only 2H melee weapon which seems appropriate to me and also maintains the theme).

And yes I understand that this a process (of comments and opinions), so I'm not taking any of this personally.

If you seek to make the Barbarian a 2-handed weapon user, might I suggest pairing the +1 Maul with the Ring of Brilliance?

It is not the dollars involved I object to the Necklace of the Oak. It is the fact that it is not acquired from packs. I don't think tokens acquired by means other than packs should be in the set(s). If you want to open it up then does that mean volunteer tokens could be included at some point? I think it is too slippery of a slope not to define these tokens as those acquirable through normal packs. It doesn't seem fair to anyone that acquired a special token through another mean that they now essentially can be bought. As someone else mentioned it lessens the accomplishment.

I agree with Xavon the Ring of Brilliance (or Ring of Enervation) works for the Barbarian.

While I agree with the idea of not reprinting tokens acquired through avenues other than sets, I thought the 'white back' tokens would only be useable in the ACG runs? If so, it shouldn't impact the value of existing tokens. I do think that these tokens should be relatively basic and maybe limit the pool to 6 rares and 7 each of uncommons and commons?

JimC wrote: Maybe it wasn't made clear, probably my fault, what I believe is going to happen is that it will be very similar to a sealed pack run. Each player based on the character they choose will receive a sealed pack that contains 2 class specific tokens and 8 random tokens from the available pool of 16 general tokens. Just like a sealed pack run, each player can choose to keep all of their tokens or trade some or even give away some. It will be beneficial to the team if trading takes place as not every class is guaranteed to get a weapon or armor and nobody starts with a ranged weapon as their class specific items.

Also, please consider the overall makeup of the party. I worked very hard at balancing items from the general pool with the specific class items to create a well equipped party. It is my understanding that the difficulty level will be on the HC+ side, again I might be wrong here, but that is why I tailored the tokens to the high end of reds and greens.

As far as the Necklace of the Oak, it could be replaced with a Wicked Charm (and still maintain the theme), but then the Barbarian goes from someone who a lot want to play, to someone who very few want to play. Another possibility is to change the theme of the Barbarian, any suggestions here? (currently the Barbarian has the only 2H melee weapon which seems appropriate to me and also maintains the theme).

And yes I understand that this a process (of comments and opinions), so I'm not taking any of this personally.

Jim, I don't think it is quite like a sealed pack run, because people can bring all the Relics / Eldritch / Legendary Tokens that they want. From my understanding, the white-backed tokens are just filling in some needed slots/tokens that aren't covered by Relics/Eldritch/Legendary tokens yet.

To respond to another post, I think the general consensus is actually that saves are more valuable than AC, but like nearly everything not everyone agrees, which is what makes character building so much fun.

jedibcg wrote: It is not the dollars involved I object to the Necklace of the Oak. It is the fact that it is not acquired from packs. I don't think tokens acquired by means other than packs should be in the set(s). If you want to open it up then does that mean volunteer tokens could be included at some point? I think it is too slippery of a slope not to define these tokens as those acquirable through normal packs. It doesn't seem fair to anyone that acquired a special token through another mean that they now essentially can be bought. As someone else mentioned it lessens the accomplishment.

I like the idea of something that rewards a 2 handed weapon for the barbarian.

I believe Jim was trying to stay away from slots that are occupied by relics. In this case, there is already supreme ring of elemental command, and ring of improved invasion in that slot. What do people think of gauntlets of ogre power that slot, and still letting it be one of the random items as well?