Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
In 2013 our plans call for us to add an additional adventure to the event. There will be two consecutive adventure modules, and each module will have two variations of either a combat or puzzle orientation. The first module called “Lycans Afoot” tasks the party to travel through a dark forest in search of a tower, while the second module called “Golembane” challenges the party to reach the top of tower.

TOPIC: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #37

Alrighty. I've fired up Python and run some random simulations.

Given the following rules from the riddle in the room:

The first and last switch are the same
Either 6 switches are on or 6 switches are off
There is exactly one instance of three switches in a row the same
There are no instances of four switches in a row the same

There are 52 possible solutions to the ten switches puzzle.

If you use only the above information, and purely random guessing, using the number of green lights illuminated to guide your choices, your worst-case condition is to guess the correct solution on your eighth try. The most likely case is to guess correctly on your fifth try.

The exact breakdown is as follows:

0 wrong guesses (correct on first try) 1/12890 0.008%
1 wrong guess (correct on second try) 51/12890 0.396%
2 wrong guesses (correct on third try) 740/12890 5.74%
3 wrong guesses (correct on forth try) 3510/12890 27.23%
4 wrong guesses (correct on fifth try) 5210/12890 40.419%
5 wrong guesses (correct on sixth try) 2770/12890 21.49%
6 wrong guesses (correct on seventh try) 568/12890 4.407%
7 wrong guesses (correct on eighth try) 40/12890 0.310%

The group I was with got it right after 3 wrong guesses, so we were doing about average.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #38

Andrew Lindsey wrote: Alrighty. I've fired up Python and run some random simulations.

Given the following rules from the riddle in the room:

The first and last switch are the same
Either 6 switches are on or 6 switches are off
There is exactly one instance of three switches in a row the same
There are no instances of four switches in a row the same

There are 52 possible solutions to the ten switches puzzle.

If you use only the above information, and purely random guessing, using the number of green lights illuminated to guide your choices, your worst-case condition is to guess the correct solution on your eighth try. The most likely case is to guess correctly on your fifth try.

The exact breakdown is as follows:

0 wrong guesses (correct on first try) 1/12890 0.008%
1 wrong guess (correct on second try) 51/12890 0.396%
2 wrong guesses (correct on third try) 740/12890 5.74%
3 wrong guesses (correct on forth try) 3510/12890 27.23%
4 wrong guesses (correct on fifth try) 5210/12890 40.419%
5 wrong guesses (correct on sixth try) 2770/12890 21.49%
6 wrong guesses (correct on seventh try) 568/12890 4.407%
7 wrong guesses (correct on eighth try) 40/12890 0.310%

The group I was with got it right after 3 wrong guesses, so we were doing about average.


What happens if you add in the fact with the rogue's clue that you know the state of switches 1 and 10?
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #39

Adding the rogue clue reduces the number of possible starting guesses from 52 to 26, and saves you one wrong guess on average. The breakdown is as follows:

0 wrong guesses (correct on first try) 1/2247 0.044%
1 wrong guess (correct on second try) 25/2247 1.112%
2 wrong guesses (correct on third try) 227/2247 10.102%
3 wrong guesses (correct on fourth try) 774/2247 34.445%
4 wrong guesses (correct on fifth try) 889/2247 39.563%
5 wrong guesses (correct on sixth try) 307/2247 13.662%
6 wrong guesses (correct on seventh try) 24/2247 1.068%

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #40

I was a DM for Golembane combat room 7 (5:36-close, thurs-sat). I had to learn the puzzle quickly because of a few call offs and no-shows (I was originally supposed to be running the combat in room 6 but we got shuffled around at the last minute).

First I will say that, from my understanding as a DM for seven of the past eight years (I missed last year because of work obligations) the final room is supposed to be hard. I tried to point this out to every party as I welcomed them into the room. I also made an effort to point out that there are multiple solutions to the clues but only one combination would unlock the hatch and let the party escape to safety (win).

I only had two parties die from damage.

At a rough estimate, about half of the parties I had solved the puzzle.

Almost every party that got wiped in my room could have tried at least two more combinations for the puzzle but didn't before they ran out of time. Most of the time it was because they were afraid of taking damage even though I made a point of reminding them that they had X amount of time until EVERYBODY dies when the tower explodes.

Several people who I trust to be better at math than me have told me that the four clues offer sixteen possible combinations. That's four patterns that can each be flipped, reversed, or flipped and reversed. The clue from the rogue box eliminated half of those (first and last switches are on).

Even with the storyscape NPC clue (3,2,1,1,1,1,1) it could be reversed, flipped, or both. I didn't have many groups come through with that clue even though I talked to one of those NPCs on a break and he didn't even know what the clue he was tossing around actually meant.

The final room is supposed to be very difficult. Debate about the final puzzle/combat issue as you wish; I just work here and I enjoy watching players work things through in combat or puzzle situations (I've ran about as many combat rooms as puzzles and for TD Retro I ran both at the same time).

I am not a writer or director (Jeff Martin writes all of this stuff and he's the guy you can thank for making this all happen in the first place) but as a DM I can say that the groups that cooperated and quickly tried multiple combinations tended to succeed a lot more than the groups that spent five minutes or so arguing whether or not to flip a single switch.

Some groups got lucky and picked the correct combination quickly. Others managed to quickly pick out other viable answers and didn't stop trying until they found the right one. Remember, I only had two groups die from damage. One particularly brave and determined group had only one surviving player at the one minute warning, but that player managed to pick the proper combination (the rest of the party had died while trying five other viable combinations).

Quick thinking, good cooperation amongst the party, and a good bit of determination (trial and error) were how to win that room. Every group that hesitated got blown up with the tower.
Everybody gets to make fortitude saves.  Again.  Also, mind your step to avoid the pixie, lest you risk eldritch immolation.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #41

Given the 4 room clues, the following solutions are possible:
OOOXOXOXXO OOOXOXXOXO OOOXXOOXXO OOOXXOXOXO OOOXXOXXOO OOXOOXXXOO OOXXOOOXXO
OOXXOXXOOO OOXXXOOXOO OXOOOXOXXO OXOOOXXOXO OXOXOOOXXO OXOXOXXOOO OXOXXOOOXO
OXOXXOXOOO OXOXXOXXXO OXOXXXOXXO OXXOOOXOXO OXXOOOXXOO OXXOOXXOOO OXXOXOOOXO
OXXOXOXOOO OXXOXOXXXO OXXOXXXOXO OXXXOXOXXO OXXXOXXOXO XOOOXOOXOX XOOOXOXOOX
XOOXOOOXOX XOOXOXOOOX XOOXOXOXXX XOOXOXXXOX XOOXXOOXXX XOOXXXOOXX XOOXXXOXOX
XOXOOOXOOX XOXOOXOOOX XOXOOXOXXX XOXOOXXXOX XOXOXOOXXX XOXOXXXOOX XOXXXOOXOX
XOXXXOXOOX XXOOOXXOXX XXOOXOOXXX XXOOXXXOOX XXOXXOOOXX XXXOOXOOXX XXXOOXOXOX
XXXOOXXOOX XXXOXOOXOX XXXOXOXOOX

That's 52 possible solutions to work through. If you are very clever and pay attention to the number of green lights after each guess, it's still possible to solve with at worst case seven incorrect guesses. If you use the rogue box clue it cuts the number of solutions in half to 26 and brings it down to 6 incorrect guesses worst case.

Here's the Python script I put together to work out how hard this puzzle actually was:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #42

If you use your first 'incorrect' guess to determine if six should be on or off what does that do?

You leave all the switches in the same state either off or on and find out how many are in the correct state? Does that help cut down the number additional incorrect guesses?
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #43

From watching about 90 parties attempting the puzzle I have to say that the most effective way of narrowing it down was just flipping two switches at a time, knowing that they would eat some more damage but also identifying which switches were correct or incorrect. Most groups that took that approach got the correct combination after three or four tries. It's the kinda brutal blunt force solution to the puzzle but a few groups were willing to have a player or two die from damage (most had saved enough healing to survive such an attempt and I made a point of reminding clerics and druids that it was the final room so they shouldn't be stingy with their healing as they were at the point of "use it or lose it").

I had one group where one of the players sat down on the floor and started working out the puzzle by placing ten tokens on the floor, face up for on and face down for off. A few of his party-mates made comments about not knowing what the heck he was doing, but he was paying attention to everything they did with the switches and adjusted his tokens accordingly. After a few tries, and watching the green lights (side note, controlling those lights was pretty fun for me) he got the correct combination on his proxy setup and after about a minute convinced the doubters to go with it.

The biggest problem a lot of groups had was communication and agreeing on trying a combination. Let's face it, ten people trying to solve a single puzzle (with multiple possible solutions) in barely ten minutes (after the intro audio and such) is a rather chaotic situation. The groups that were able to quickly and smoothly cooperate and trust each other when one or two said "this meets the criteria" rather than waiting for every single member to double check it were the ones that tended to solve it in time.
Everybody gets to make fortitude saves.  Again.  Also, mind your step to avoid the pixie, lest you risk eldritch immolation.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #44

jedibcg wrote: If you use your first 'incorrect' guess to determine if six should be on or off what does that do?

You leave all the switches in the same state either off or on and find out how many are in the correct state? Does that help cut down the number additional incorrect guesses?


Making your first guess all on or all off actually hurts you, although not very much. If you're using the strategy correctly each wrong guess should approximately halve the remaining posibly correct solutions, so making a guess that you know can't be right is slightly worse than making a guess that might be correct, but if it isn't will give you useful information anyway.

From what I'm hearing getting the right answer after three or four wrong guesses is typical, and agrees with my solutions. It sounds like the main way to fail this puzzle is to not have a strategy, or to fail to notice the green lights and guess blindly, or to be so scared of a wrong answer that you run out of time.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #45

  • Raven
  • Raven's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 11th Level
  • Supporter
  • Guildmaster Nightshade
  • Posts: 6697

Andrew Lindsey wrote: It sounds like the main way to fail this puzzle is to not have a strategy, or to fail to notice the green lights and guess blindly, or to be so scared of a wrong answer that you run out of time.


What he said.

And I would add "or fail to watch your own HP and get healing if the next wrong guess might kill you".

We brute-forced the puzzle a couple times, and - knowing it was the final room and we didn't need our HP brought back to full - just had our Cleric heal up the weaker players so we could survive our own errors.
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Check out these awesome resources:
Cranston's Character Generator for iDevices or Android
Amorgen's Excel Character Generator
And the ever-useful Token DataBase , expertly maintained by Druegar.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #46

Raven wrote: We brute-forced the puzzle a couple times, and - knowing it was the final room and we didn't need our HP brought back to full - just had our Cleric heal up the weaker players so we could survive our own errors.


When your party came through Thursday evening you definitely brute forced it, but I can't find any fault with the way you guys did it. You managed to communicate clearly and didn't argue, going from one possible solution to the next quickly while taking note of the green lights and noting which switches could be confirmed as being at the right settings. And you also had an awesome healer who spent most of the time standing right next to me keeping the rest of you alive while you zapped yourselves about five times for Nightmare damage before finally getting the correct combination. Not a lot of parties were so well coordinated, but I kinda expect that type of thing when I recognize a bunch of veteran players marching into my room.

And I'm not sure about how other DMs handled it, but I had to be standing along a specific line to trigger the green lights with my remote (the receiver was at a weird angle and a bit touchy) so everybody noticed me paying attention to those lights as they lit up the first time.
Everybody gets to make fortitude saves.  Again.  Also, mind your step to avoid the pixie, lest you risk eldritch immolation.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Flushmaster.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #47

My problem with both of those puzzles was that it took too long for something to happen when testing out a combination.

In my group, I was the one who figured out "Yes, we have to hit the button to do anything" in the first puzzle. That was about five minutes in, so we didn't have enough time to finish the puzzle. Even when we hit it, though, it took about 45 seconds before a ball could potentially drop.

The final puzzle, we had the rogue clue and seven of the lights correct on the first try. The Room DM even noted that was the second-best that he had seen up to that point. However, each time we tried a different combination, it took another 30 seconds or so to get the remote to actually trigger. Between that delay, and the self-inflicted delay to try to heal everyone, that was another failure. Overall, ending the combat-run with a puzzle where rocks fall and everyone dies was disappointing.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts 10 years 7 months ago #48

Jim Auwaerter wrote: ...ending the combat-run with a puzzle where rocks fall and everyone dies was disappointing.

Yup. It made sense story-wise, but was anticlimactic.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.109 seconds