TOPIC: Arcane Recipe <=Artifact Creation Token

I think the idea of having one or 2 in the token boxes as a chance at a random pull and 2 in the auction house is a great idea. If there isn't something worth buying with gold, gold will loose its value over the years and that will be a bad thing. Encouraging people to buy more tokens is a good thing.  I might not have a ton of money to buy tokens but I don't fault those that do, infact quite the opposit, I'm excited and happy for those folks. The more tokens they pick up the higher my chances of getting the rare one I need for whatever I'm working on.<br /><br />I can see where people might think this could lead to the rich get richer and its truely not the case unless someone makes an artifact that is an uber horn of plenty.  Thus far the majority of items are only marginally better then the standard items. A +2 over a +1 for example or in the case of an artifact a +3 over a +2. While this gives a great advantage in the statistical department on a throw per throw basis I could still out preform someone with a better throw provided our weapons used the same range without the plus. Where it might get out of hand is if people are allowed to create very over the top items.<br /><br />Now, all that being said, the beauty of TD is that no matter what crazy wonkiness your group comes up with it only affects your group and my TD experience is unaffected, with the possible exception of the joint room idea from last year. Which is neat. The bar brawls and any other PVP type idea that gets invented would be the exception. But as with DnD, you don't pick a fight with the guy decked out in glowing gear!<br /><br />As a former Magic player with the power9 the cards did help me get more cards by allowing me to win tournements but TD isn't like that. Tokens help you win combat but they are beatable without the uber tokens.<br /><br />So in summary, great idea. Keep is simple and keep it controlled but grats on a new idea to keep the game fresh and exciting!

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<br /><br />2. The person who crates the artifact can get a pass on compiling the ingredients (so that a Brand new player can do it without having to sell the thing)<br /><br />

<br /><br />I had the same thought last night.  Maybe the one Arcane Recipe token in the treasure draw can have a special mark that allows it to be used with just minimal tokens.  You still have to have SOME tokens turned in to make it fun.<br />

<br /><br />That's a great idea.  How depressing would it be for a new player to get that Arcane Recipe Token in a treasure draw, and then be told it takes 20,000 GP which they don't have and another 20 old tokens which they also don't have to trade it in?  <br />

<br /><br />I might be a bit bummed I couldn't make the artifact but actually I'm be super exicted because I could just trade it for several awsome tokens and probably end up way better off then just having 1 uber item.  I would caviot that with making sure a new person was very clear of the potential value of the token so they dont get rooked, but if its just made common knowledge then the trading wars should get up decently high enough.

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<br />There was an opportunity to go on the gold standard a while back and it was discarded for good reason. No need to reverse course now and give trade items a GP value.<br />

<br /><br />I was only suggesting a partial change in course.  Don't give the Trade Items a formal GP Value, and don't allow them to be used in all the Auctions.  But, for some auctions, allow them to be used at some value set by Jeff.  <br /><br />Just because something is being done a particular way now, doesn't mean that can't be relooked at to see if there is a better idea.  And hey, Jeff allows Trade Items to have a GP Value for some of the auctions one year, if that doesn't work for whatever reason, he can just make that a one-time thing and not do it again - no harm done.  <br />

<br /><br />That's exactly the problem. There _is_ harm done. People traded for the things based on the stated value. You can't arbitrarily change that value and still be fair to people. That's why decisions like this have to be established right from the start and then not swapped about.<br />

<br /><br />We'll have to agree to disagree on that.  I see no harm done in - for instance - allowing a Dwarven Steel to be used in some selected auctions at an exchange rate of 25 GP.  Nobody is hurt.  If anyone bought any Dwarven Steel's, they just became more valuable so that is added value.  If anyone didn't trade in for them because they didn't know they could be used in auctions, they can trade in for them now.  It helps True Dungeon because it gets more tokens turned in, encouraging future token sales, and it helps players because it makes their excess tokens even more valuable.  Win-Win. 

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<br /><br />2. The person who crates the artifact can get a pass on compiling the ingredients (so that a Brand new player can do it without having to sell the thing)<br /><br />

<br /><br />I had the same thought last night.  Maybe the one Arcane Recipe token in the treasure draw can have a special mark that allows it to be used with just minimal tokens.  You still have to have SOME tokens turned in to make it fun.<br />

<br /><br />That's a great idea.  How depressing would it be for a new player to get that Arcane Recipe Token in a treasure draw, and then be told it takes 20,000 GP which they don't have and another 20 old tokens which they also don't have to trade it in?  <br />

<br /><br />I like the idea...but don't agree that the situation described is depressing at all!<br /><br />If I am a first time player, and I draw something that I hear is AWESOME!  Well I am excited.  OK so it might take X and I don't have it...but there-in lies the "reality" of finding an "Artifact" in the dungeon.  <br /><br />I like to think back to the days when I didn't have a wooden weapon token without numbers around it...It was a quest worthy of the time and effort and trade cost to get one!  That is part of what I think Jeff is looking for in these new tokens - methinks.

Just a few of my thoughts...<br /><br />I like the idea of 2 in the treasure pull, 1 auctioned off.  This eliminates proxy bidders so someone can't just buy 2.<br /><br />I also think that by adjusting the amount of extra tokens to whatever power of the item in question, a new player who draws one can make an item just a bit better than the current ultra rares.  Or they might be better off bartering it off with the richer players for a few ultra rares or the like (probably what I would do.)<br /><br />Also, I prefer the current bartering system we have with the trade items.  I don't think attaching a GP value to them would be very fair or even desirable.  If players want GP for trade items, then trade with someone and find a price both parties find workable.

True, Bro - I should have phrased that differently.  If anyone got that arcane recipe token from a token box, it would be an AWESOME treasure pull even if they didn't have the tokens to cash it in.  <br /><br />I do worry about a newbie getting it and not realizing it's value, and getting ripped off in a trade.  When we drew tokens at True Realm, they had us draw no more than 5 tokens at a time, and had us place them down face-up before we drew more.  If that's the policy again, maybe the people monitoring the Token Boxes could point out to the person that draws it and let them know it's VERY special and not to trade it unless they check with several traders first to get the best deal.  The vast majority of players don't check out this site, and will have no idea how rare that token is.  

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<br />There was an opportunity to go on the gold standard a while back and it was discarded for good reason. No need to reverse course now and give trade items a GP value.<br />

<br /><br />I was only suggesting a partial change in course.  Don't give the Trade Items a formal GP Value, and don't allow them to be used in all the Auctions.  But, for some auctions, allow them to be used at some value set by Jeff.  <br /><br />Just because something is being done a particular way now, doesn't mean that can't be relooked at to see if there is a better idea.  And hey, Jeff allows Trade Items to have a GP Value for some of the auctions one year, if that doesn't work for whatever reason, he can just make that a one-time thing and not do it again - no harm done.  <br />

<br /><br />That's exactly the problem. There _is_ harm done. People traded for the things based on the stated value. You can't arbitrarily change that value and still be fair to people. That's why decisions like this have to be established right from the start and then not swapped about.<br />

<br /><br />We'll have to agree to disagree on that.  I see no harm done in - for instance - allowing a Dwarven Steel to be used in some selected auctions at an exchange rate of 25 GP.  Nobody is hurt.  If anyone bought any Dwarven Steel's, they just became more valuable so that is added value.  If anyone didn't trade in for them because they didn't know they could be used in auctions, they can trade in for them now.  It helps True Dungeon because it gets more tokens turned in, encouraging future token sales, and it helps players because it makes their excess tokens even more valuable.  Win-Win.  <br />

<br /><br />Going to have to side with H on this one Bro.<br /><br />Grey areas are bad - changing things from year to year also bad.  It will cause hard feelings and at the extreme discourage token buys.<br /><br />The Ring of Protection is a good case.

<br />Just a few of my thoughts...<br /><br />I like the idea of 2 in the treasure pull, 1 auctioned off.  This eliminates proxy bidders so someone can't just buy 2.<br /><br />I also think that by adjusting the amount of extra tokens to whatever power of the item in question, a new player who draws one can make an item just a bit better than the current ultra rares.  Or they might be better off bartering it off with the richer players for a few ultra rares or the like (probably what I would do.)<br /><br />Also, I prefer the current bartering system we have with the trade items.  I don't think attaching a GP value to them would be very fair or even desirable.  If players want GP for trade items, then trade with someone and find a price both parties find workable.<br />

<br /><br />At the price these will go for, I'm not sure if there's much risk that one person will end up with both of them  -  and hey, if they've got enough gold to get a proxy and outbid everyone for BOTH of them, more power to them   =)

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<br />There was an opportunity to go on the gold standard a while back and it was discarded for good reason. No need to reverse course now and give trade items a GP value.<br />

<br /><br />I was only suggesting a partial change in course.  Don't give the Trade Items a formal GP Value, and don't allow them to be used in all the Auctions.  But, for some auctions, allow them to be used at some value set by Jeff.  <br /><br />Just because something is being done a particular way now, doesn't mean that can't be relooked at to see if there is a better idea.  And hey, Jeff allows Trade Items to have a GP Value for some of the auctions one year, if that doesn't work for whatever reason, he can just make that a one-time thing and not do it again - no harm done.  <br />

<br /><br />That's exactly the problem. There _is_ harm done. People traded for the things based on the stated value. You can't arbitrarily change that value and still be fair to people. That's why decisions like this have to be established right from the start and then not swapped about.<br />

<br /><br />We'll have to agree to disagree on that.  I see no harm done in - for instance - allowing a Dwarven Steel to be used in some selected auctions at an exchange rate of 25 GP.  Nobody is hurt.  If anyone bought any Dwarven Steel's, they just became more valuable so that is added value.  If anyone didn't trade in for them because they didn't know they could be used in auctions, they can trade in for them now.  It helps True Dungeon because it gets more tokens turned in, encouraging future token sales, and it helps players because it makes their excess tokens even more valuable.  Win-Win.  <br />

<br /><br />Going to have to side with H on this one Bro.<br /><br />Grey areas are bad - changing things from year to year also bad.  It will cause hard feelings and at the extreme discourage token buys.<br /><br />The Ring of Protection is a good case.<br />

<br /><br />No problem Bro - as I said with H, we can agree to disagree, and I respect your opinion.  I certainly see how the Ring of Protection caused hard feelings, but don't see how allowing Trade Tokens to be used in some select auctions (and maybe not for the top items) would cause hard feelings or discourage token buys.  It seems to me that it will make people happy that their pile of Trade Item Tokens have more value, and it seems that it would encourage more token buys and not discourage them -  because the tokens you're buying will have more value. 

Only way I see that working is to make them an ingredient in a bid...like making a combo token.<br /><br />For example.<br /><br />Up for auction is the Minotaur hide prop used to make the token.<br /><br />Bidding starts at 1 Minotaur hide token and 100GP...<br /><br />Leave the "grey area" GP value off the Hide and just make it a part of the winning "price."

The trade item tokens are also being used for for combo tokens as well..so Dwarven Steel etc are used in combo items I would think these combos will be harder to put together<br />+1 Keen Hand Axe (2,3,4,5,6,7)  - Usable by all except Cleric and Wizard<br />2x Dwarven Steel<br />1x Darkwood Plank<br />1x Scroll of Acid Spray<br />2x Agate Gems<br />50 GP in gold and/or gems<br /><br />Orb of Pelor (3,4,5,5,7,8 – hurled weapon, use once per combat) -  Usable by all<br />1x Dwarven Steel<br />1x Minotaur Hide<br />1x Darkwood Plank<br />2x Sling Bullet of Fire<br />1x Scroll of Color Spray<br />50 GP in gold and/or gems<br /><br />That is getting 75+ tokens out of circulation for each one of those

<br />Only way I see that working is to make them an ingredient in a bid...like making a combo token.<br /><br />For example.<br /><br />Up for auction is the Minotaur hide prop used to make the token.<br /><br />Bidding starts at 1 Minotaur hide token and 100GP...<br /><br />Leave the "grey area" GP value off the Hide and just make it a part of the winning "price."<br />

<br /><br />That might make it pretty problematic - it would make the auctions more like getting expensive combo items.  The way I was suggesting still kept it strictly on a GP basis, it just let Trade Items count as Gold Pieces for certain items, and it could result in a whole pile of Trade Item tokens being cashed in and not just one.  <br /><br />Maybe it could be two auctions - the regular auction and a special "Trade Item auction", where Trade Items could be used with a GP value also.  That wouldn't be so much changing the rules in midstream as adding a bonus auction event.