TOPIC: Arcane Recipe <=Artifact Creation Token

I think there has been a very gracious amount done to reward the big spenders and token faithful...<br /><br />Golden TIX, Ultra Rares, Special give aways, tickets for runs, PYP, modules, past auctions, etc.<br /><br />I would have just made the Artifact/Relic idea something even a first time player had a shot at getting.  So what if they trade it away, or can't make the arte for a year or two...that is typical D&D and the stuff of great story telling...  compare this to folks who pull a PURP out of a treasure box - much cooler VS bidding/buying these things.  Consider also the Artisan tokens...they have no "glory" or "gusto" behind them and have fallen into the mundane.  (granted they serve no greater purpose...but they were the first shot at bidding for "hard to get tokens.")<br /><br />Jeff, please consider putting all three pieces in a box - or even make one-two of them a token prize like the tapestry contest, or present Peter quest.  Much more realistic and FUN VS bidding for them in an auction.<br /><br />Old props and old tokens are much better auction items IMO... also consider items you give the token faithful as bidding items, that way others can shoot for those items.  <br /><br />Tie the Arte/Relic thingys into the game, and make an unbiased game of it - not just a bid war where the rich reap the reward.

Someone should also decide some things about these tokens. Is it possible to make more than one artifact and is it possible to use more than one artifact. That will affect things greatly. A restriction on the former is useless without the latter. After all, people will just have friends proxy it.<br /><br />Also, if we're going into the realm of artifacts in general, they usually don't mix well at all. The Staff of Law is the first one we've had so that's not a problem but if we're adding others, one way to restrict is 1 artifact per character. It's both thematically valid and it also serves some sort of purpose as a meta-check on item stacking.<br /><br />All in all, I dunno how I feel about a lot of this. There are so many 'chase tokens' now and I'm sorta tired of running. But, I guess that's how it's supposed to work. After all, you never see old dragons out raiding for new treasure. They're always at home sitting on their accumulated hoards and having pleasant dreams about the time they ate a dozen paladins.

here is an idea i have been thinking about.<br /><br />1. artifact/relics are "bestowed" by the divine beings. (jeff, dave, lori, jeff c.,<br />lee, warren, fritz, etc.)<br /><br />2. at certain established times during gencon, players can "attempt" to aquire one.<br /><br />3. an ultra rare MUST be sacrificed to the gods. this will establish a base percentage to work with.<br /><br />4. deeds/quests can raise your chance of success.<br /><br />5. gold donations to the greyhawk orphans fund can raise the chance of success.<br /><br />6. maybe another means of gaining favor from the gods.<br /><br />7. when all things are figured out, roll dice with witnesses.<br /><br />8. your god might find you lacking and reject you. you get nothing. however, if you fail, your god is still impressed and you gain percentage points for your next attempt.<br /><br />9. your god is pleased and you get to draw from a bag of goodies (relics). this should be random. besides your god knows better than you what is good for you.<br /><br /> i see this option/method as workable because there are no guarantees and it would be open to more folks. sure, massive gold would help, but it might be WASTED.

I like most of the idea, but how about instead of using GPs using treasure draws?

Those are cool ideas - but the main driver from what I understand behind the auctions (and combo tokens, reserve tokens and trade item tokens) is to act as token sinks, to get excess tokens off the market, and to encourage people to buy more tokens.  <br /><br />The Combo Tokens aren't great as token sinks because they don't really take that many tokens off the market, the incentive to buy tokens from those are that the incredients are mostly tokens from that year's release, so you need to buy tokens every year to get the incredients for that year's tokens.  Combo tokens are a reward to even the small token buyers, because you don't need that many tokens to get most of them (although it is scalable and rewards big token buyers more because they can trade for multiples of each).  <br /><br />The Trade Item Tokens are better token sinks, but even those have limits, because before long you'll have a pile of all of them.  The Trade Item Combo Tokens help that out, by continually pulling Trade Item tokens off the market too.  <br /><br />The Auction is the only real token sink that can pull huge amounts of tokens out of the market on a continual basis.  Every year it pulls a bunch of GP/Gem tokens out of the market, and because the bidders spend a ton of GP in the auctions, they need to buy more tokens the next year to replenish their supply.  If Jeff puts items on auction that are desirable enough to get token buyers to pay tens of thousands of GP for, then that totally accomplished the goal of the auctions.  It's a reward to the big token buyers by giving them something cool to do with their piles of GP/Gems, and it helps keep TD healthy by giving the big token buyers to keep buying tokens every year.  <br /><br />The auctions aren't a case of "the rich getting richer" since in reality the rich are getting poorer by spending a bunch of their GP on auction items.  It isn't a case either of "old-timers vs. newcomers", since someone could start TD tomorrow, and they could order enough tokens before GENCON to have enough GP to be very competitive in the auctions.  What the auctions favor is the big token buyers, as the more you buy the more you can bid.  But even there, I think Jeff puts enough items, major and minor, in the auctions so everyone has a chance to win something.  <br /><br />The one drawback I see to the auctions is that, while they are by far the best token sink in the game, they only pull out GP and Gems (and other items with GP values).  I think it would be a great idea - for at least some of the auctions, to let people use trade item tokens for bidding also, at some preset value (like maybe 25 or 50 GP for the ones makeable by commons, 100 or 150 GP for the ones makeable by uncommons, and maybe 500 GP for Aragonite - just numbers off the top of my head).  If that were done, it would be win-win - for it would let people get value out of nearly all their excess tokens, and would also pull more tokens out of circulation encouraging more token sales.  <br /><br />What does everyone think of allowing some (not all) of the auction items to have Trade Item Tokens bid for them.  

<br />I like most of the idea, but how about instead of using GPs using treasure draws?<br />

<br /><br />Noooo - don't take away my precious treasure draws!!  =)

There was an opportunity to go on the gold standard a while back and it was discarded for good reason. No need to reverse course now and give trade items a GP value.

Jeff is trying to satisfy both the Token Heavy, and the Token light with the current artifact plan.<br /><br />There is a chance (albeit a small one) that the random one will get drawn.<br /><br />The two up in Auction will almost certainly get bought.<br /><br />The two changes I'd suggest would be.<br /> 1. Similar to Gary's idea.. put 2 of them into the random draw box, leaving 1 for the auction<br /><br />2. The person who crates the artifact can get a pass on compiling the ingredients (so that a Brand new player can do it without having to sell the thing)<br /><br /> Personally I don't think it's over balanced one way or the other.<br /><br />While I can respect Smak's idea of the give all these things for a chance.. it offers little oppurtunity to design the "perfect token".. plus since it requires a UR  I think it leans more towards the Token heavy end of the spectrum.<br /><br />I think I'll make ( should I get one) a Robe of Many useful Items.<br />effect - Can stand in for any token of the current set up to and including the rares.  but only 1 at a time.<br />cost - Must submit 2 full sets of tokens from different years ( not including the UR's)<br /><br />or a Dagger of Ultimate Pwnage<br />effect - Damage wheel is 3/4/5/20 and it Carries a +2 deflection bonus to AC<br />Cost - You have to submit one of the rouge shirts along with a dagger of throwing. or 2000gp in stolen loot

<br /><br />2. The person who crates the artifact can get a pass on compiling the ingredients (so that a Brand new player can do it without having to sell the thing)<br /><br />

<br /><br />I had the same thought last night.  Maybe the one Arcane Recipe token in the treasure draw can have a special mark that allows it to be used with just minimal tokens.  You still have to have SOME tokens turned in to make it fun.

<br />There was an opportunity to go on the gold standard a while back and it was discarded for good reason. No need to reverse course now and give trade items a GP value.<br />

<br /><br />I was only suggesting a partial change in course.  Don't give the Trade Items a formal GP Value, and don't allow them to be used in all the Auctions.  But, for some auctions, allow them to be used at some value set by Jeff.  <br /><br />Just because something is being done a particular way now, doesn't mean that can't be relooked at to see if there is a better idea.  And hey, Jeff allows Trade Items to have a GP Value for some of the auctions one year, if that doesn't work for whatever reason, he can just make that a one-time thing and not do it again - no harm done.  

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<br /><br />2. The person who crates the artifact can get a pass on compiling the ingredients (so that a Brand new player can do it without having to sell the thing)<br /><br />

<br /><br />I had the same thought last night.  Maybe the one Arcane Recipe token in the treasure draw can have a special mark that allows it to be used with just minimal tokens.  You still have to have SOME tokens turned in to make it fun.<br />

<br /><br />That's a great idea.  How depressing would it be for a new player to get that Arcane Recipe Token in a treasure draw, and then be told it takes 20,000 GP which they don't have and another 20 old tokens which they also don't have to trade it in? 

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<br />There was an opportunity to go on the gold standard a while back and it was discarded for good reason. No need to reverse course now and give trade items a GP value.<br />

<br /><br />I was only suggesting a partial change in course.  Don't give the Trade Items a formal GP Value, and don't allow them to be used in all the Auctions.  But, for some auctions, allow them to be used at some value set by Jeff.  <br /><br />Just because something is being done a particular way now, doesn't mean that can't be relooked at to see if there is a better idea.  And hey, Jeff allows Trade Items to have a GP Value for some of the auctions one year, if that doesn't work for whatever reason, he can just make that a one-time thing and not do it again - no harm done.  <br />

<br /><br />That's exactly the problem. There _is_ harm done. People traded for the things based on the stated value. You can't arbitrarily change that value and still be fair to people. That's why decisions like this have to be established right from the start and then not swapped about.