TOPIC: Last Chance to Give General Token Guidance

About the wand charges you could have different values based on rarity like U is 1 charges and R is 2 charges and have each wand or staff use a different amount of charges based on power of the spell.  So for say a magic missle you would have to turn in 1 charge but for a fireball it might be 3 charges.

What a difference a night of good sleep makes.  <br />The more I thought about the wands needing charges the more I thought it may not be so bad, as long as wand do a minimum damage without said charges, they would in essence be like bows for mages.  While I like what JimC said where charges are multipliers for damage, I am more in favor of fixed pluses to effects.   That way wands can be scaled easily and if I recall my psych class correctly its easier for the human mind to add vs. multiplication. <br />So for example  let's look at wands that have been released before: <br />Wand of Lightning Base Damage 4, DC 12 Ref save for half. Wizard only.<br />Wand of Frost Based damage 2, no save. Wizard only.<br />Wand of Cure light wounds - heals 0 point of damage - Cleric, Druid, Bard<br /><br />Then we have common charges +2 to wand effect, uncommon charges +4 to wand effect, rare charges +8 to wand effect.<br />If a mage got a wand with no charges then at least they could always do some damage, meaning their spells will be  better but it's a hold out weapon.  <br />This approach I think would line up the wands to be more like other ranged weapons and eliminates the need for the coaches to provide tokens to those who got rares without charges.  And as long as the charge bonus + the wand effect does not create power creep (like Henwy said we need to watch out for that) that exceeds already stable scrolls (for example the wand of cure lt wounds +1 rare charge is the same as 1 Rare Scroll: Cure light Wounds (8pts)).<br /><br />So looking at the existing set of wands, we do have wands with effects other than damage or healing.<br />So the wand of slow is a good first example - DC12 save  or loose next action.  Perhaps the save is adjusted by the bonus provided by the rarity of the charge.<br />So Wand of Slow DC 8 Will save or loose next turn.   With a common charge it becomes DC 10, Uncommon DC12, and Rare DC 16.<br /><br />Which would prompt me to change the Wand of Lightening Bolt to be about the same.<br /> Base Damage 4, DC 8 Ref save for half. Wizard only.<br /><br />So really charges would need to be written +X to effect and save modifiers on the wand.  This would cover saves and damage.<br /><br />Last wand type that would need to be examined - Wand of Detect Magic - I think this would be written, Expend any charge for 1 use.<br /><br />So if I was to reserrect every wand under this idea of charges having fixed adjustments<br /><br />Common Charge +2 to effect and save modifiers on the wand<br />Uncommon Charge +4 to effect and save modifiers on the wand<br />Rare Charge +8 to effect and save modifiers on the wand<br /><br />I would go with.<br />Wand Magic Missle: 1pt of damage<br />Wand of Lightning Bolt:  Base Damage 4, DC 8 Ref save for half.<br />Wand of Melf's Acid Arrow: Base Damage 4, Hit AC 15. Wizard only.<br />Wand of Detect Magic: expend a chage to use<br />Wand of Cure Light Wounds: Heal 0 points of damage.<br />Wand of Slow: DC 8 Will save or monster miss next turn<br />Wand of Lifestealing: DC 8 Fort save or target takes 2 points of damage AND wizard healed 2 points of damage<br /><br />So as long as most wands do something without a charge I am ok with this charge proposal.

I guess one decision to be made is whether there is one set of "generic" charge counters of each rarity that applies to all wands, or whether each wand has it's own set of charge counters.  I'm guessing there would just be 1-3 Wands per year, so if you had charge counters specific to each wand, that's not very different from having ammunition tokens (masterwork arrow, masterwork bolt, sling bullet, etc) for each weapon.  It might be better to have the charge counters be specific to each wand to let them scale better.  But, if it can be made to work, it would be more flexible to have one set of charge counters that worked for all wands.  <br /><br />Maybe the Charge counters wouldn't even have the bonuses on them, and the wands would have written on them what effect each charge counter had?  That would be the most elegant solution, although all that writing might not fit on the tokens. 

I'm against charge counters. We've never hadtokens before that were completely worthless unless you had another token. I would argue that's been one of the driving principles of TD, that a newbie can use whatever comes out of a bag. If someone gets a charge counter but has no wand, it's worthless.

I am against charges in general, because I think they will get hoarded and people will over-use their wands.<br /><br />More specifically, I don't like this idea...<br />

<br />Common Charge +2 to effect and save modifiers on the wand<br />Uncommon Charge +4 to effect and save modifiers on the wand<br />Rare Charge +8 to effect and save modifiers on the wand<br />

<br /><br />I don't think wands need to be any more powerful than they already are.  If you are going to make charges at all, they should be of one rarity, and not add to the effect.  Their purpose is to not expend your wand, not to super-charge it.

<br />I'm against charge counters. We've never hadtokens before that were completely worthless unless you had another token. I would argue that's been one of the driving principles of TD, that a newbie can use whatever comes out of a bag. If someone gets a charge counter but has no wand, it's worthless.<br />

<br /><br />Can you use a masterwork arrow (or any special arrow) without a bow?  I'm thinking I might be misunderstanding those tokens...

Unless you think we'll have common wands anytime soon, I don't think it's comparable. Or unless someone else is thinking of having a red expendable arrow. That would be just as sucky.

<br />Unless you think we'll have common wands anytime soon, I don't think it's comparable. Or unless someone else is thinking of having a red expendable arrow. That would be just as sucky.<br />

<br /><br />I wasn't comparing wands and bows.  Just wondering if you were correct in saying that there were no tokens you could get that needed another token to be usable.  It seems the special ammunition tokens fit into that category.

Balanced by the fact that they're commons. I'm mostly worried about the rares and v ery rares.

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<br />I'm against charge counters. We've never hadtokens before that were completely worthless unless you had another token. I would argue that's been one of the driving principles of TD, that a newbie can use whatever comes out of a bag. If someone gets a charge counter but has no wand, it's worthless.<br />

<br /><br />Can you use a masterwork arrow (or any special arrow) without a bow?  I'm thinking I might be misunderstanding those tokens...<br />

<br /><br />I am going to have to go with Jtillots on this one, we have ammo that stretches from Common (MW x), Uncommon (Bolt of Lightning,Sleep Arrow, Sling Bullet of Impact), to one UR (Arrow of Slaying).   And it is entirely possible to get ammo without a weapon. <br />While there is a Common for some of these (Short bow, sling), most have an uncommon version (Long Bow, Heavy Crossbow), with Rare varients (+1 longbow, Heavy repeating Xbow), and UR versions (Heavy Repeating Xbow +1, Composite longbow, and +2 Flaming shortbow).<br />So instead of having the wands being burned up and turned in on last charge, why not make wands like other ranged weapons and have "special ammo" for them.<br /><br />As for jammies point about charges should just be one rarity and just used and not super charge the wand.  My point is wands should do something as a base item, much like other ranged weapons.  You can use a bow without masterwork arrows and do damage with it.  Wands should do the same, otherwise wands are worse than ranged weapons, because without a charge they then become just pretty sticks.<br /><br />Which is why I proposing charges being like special ammo, the wand still does X, charges make wands do X+Y.  Common charges of +2 still make the player spells better choices but at least gives the mage something to burn.  <br /><br />If we want to look at it from an economics stand point of increasing token burn, a current rare wand has anywhere from 3-5 charges.  Looking at the Wand of Lightning Bolt that's one rare that gives you 5 castings.   If charges were all made to be rare it would take 6 rares to to equal that one.  If charges were uncommon then it would still be 1 rare + 5 uncommons, and if charges were common then 1 rare +5 commons.  As you can see there is no equality of what was to what could be.  It's still 1 rare-plus to equal 1 rare.    If on the other hand you make the wands still rare, and do something base, then charges not only make the wand better, but when you spend a rare charge it makes it better than 1 rare alone would be.<br /><br />Perhaps think of it from this perspective: a +1 Long bow, a rare, is a decent weapon, but combine it with the rare Bracers of Archery and it begins to really do some damage, throw on a common Masterwork Arrow item and it can start to hurt.    Now the advantage a wand has over any ranged weapon is fixed damage (with perhaps a save) and, with the exception of Melfs Acid Arrow, do not require a slide to hit.  I can see your point that charges should not super-charge the wand, but wands without charges are just as bad.  What I was trying to do was strike a balance of saying wands should always do something, like other ranged weapons, and charges should make the wand better (just like ammo), and that a wand without charges should suck in comparison to any spell, but charges should make them equal to scrolls of the equivalent level of the charge.  <br /><br />So back to my earlier post <br />Let's add the one wand I forgot about:<br />Wand of Frost - the original rare did 7 points no save and had 4 charges.  So 28 points of damage was in that one wand.<br />Under the suggestion I am proposing:<br />Wand of Frost Does 2 points no save.  <br />To equal the original damage of 28 with common charges at +2 it would take  7 common charges to do 28 points of damage., Uncommon at +4 would make that happen in 5 tokens (for 30), and with rares it would take 3 charges (for 30).  Looking at pure token distribution of 1 rare per 7 commons and 2 uncommons. It seems balanced.   And the wand at least always does 2 points of damage, but when looking at the wizards weakest spell (orb of acid which does 3 points of damage), it shows that the wand without charges is a last ditch weapon.<br />Now lets compare the damage output of a wand with an equivalent scroll of the level of the charge.<br />Wand of Frost (2) + Common Charge (2) = 4pts of damage which equals scroll of magic missle<br />Wand of Frost (2) + Uncommon Charge (4) = 6 points of damage well looking at the 2 uncommon damage scrolls Scorching Ray (12 Dmg, hit AC15) and Melfs Acid Arrow (8 Dmg, Hit AC15) it seems a bit underpowered until you realize you do not have to slide.<br />Wand of Frost (2) + Rare Charge (8) = 10 points of damage, considering that you expended a rare where as before it took you 4 times as long to expend a rare, but I digress. 10 points of damage, the only rare damage scroll we have is chain lightening which against one opponent could do 12 points of damage if they fail a save, but saying most monsters save 50% of the time, a scroll like that does 9 points of damage, making the wand appear to be slightly more powerful, until you take into consideration that chain lightning hits all enemies in a room and as soon as the count of enemies exceeds 1 the scroll is better.<br />So my point is this, wands, when properly managed against fixed value charges, can be good, but rarely more powerful than the items that already exist.<br /><br />And lastly, something I just thought about, it can be ruled that charges only work on chargeless wands so at least they will not stack with existing wands that are in the market (otherwise it would be broken).<br />

This also makes wands more likely to be used since collectors won't be worried about losing the wand when they spend the charges.  And keeping one common, uncommon, and rare charge for the wand isn't as big of a deal as letting that rare wand sit idle.

It also gives more consumable tokens that will be used, which is always good for TD.