TOPIC: Could 2009 be the year of reprint?

<br />My point was that every once in a while all of your carefully laid plans will be tossed out the window by your group, and a DM has to learn to accept that.  <br />

<br />I think our DMs do just that and relay possible room designs to the other DMs as well as Jeff.  There was a dry erase board for such things, as well as word of mouth I am sure!<br /><br />

<br />...but to me it is an unimaginative cop out to constantly nerf the equipment and abilities of the group in order to make an encounter awesome.  It takes a much more creative and imaginative DM to prepare awesome encounters that don't nerf the equipment and abilities of the group.  <br />

<br />We have an impasse here...while I see it as good design to counter the obvious solutions, I think you are saying you welcome the obvious.  IF it were possible to design the UBER challenge where there were no shortcuts - and I do think these exist (Gearon's puzzle for example...) well then KUDOS!  But I think given the intelligent crowd that are TD customers...we have to be ready for the creative solutions (such as lowering a rope from above the jungle-gym equipment, and counter as needed!)  (I'm still proud of myself for the "bridge over solution!")<br /><br />

<br />And in regards to True Dungeon, the fly token is still a good example.  If every time there is a room where the token could be used there is something that prevents it from being used (anti-fly magic, strong winds, etc.) then that is just wrong in my opinion.  <br />

<br /><br />Every time is the hair splitter - WHO SAID EVERYTIME?  No one is saying everytime...what I think we are saying is if there are obvious solutions we mask them - or nerf them somewhat to make it more of a challenge...otherwise it is a walk in the park.  And I think the FLY scroll IS a good example - you could FLY over and attack the MF if you wanted to = right?<br /><br />

<br />The fact exists that certain tokesn exist that could easily bypass the intended solution to a room.  If those tokens are one-shots and are rare or ultra-rare, then so what?  Let the people who have those tokens use those tokens.  To constantly and repeatedly deny them the opportunity to ever use those tokens is just wrong.  Why were the tokens given out if they are constantly negated by some factor of the dungeon?  I'm not saying that they should never be negated, only that they should never be repeatedly negated.<br />

<br /><br />Agreed - we are saying the same thing - leave the option open to nerf a token on occasion - especially if it means breaking the room in 30 seconds that was so painstakenly designed to give the party a challenge for 10 minutes...<br />

This is an interesting discussion because we have some fundamental issues of game-design at its core. Game-play must be engaging to the player without appearing to be contrived. How many people remember the room in White Plume Mountain just before the the vampire? It was a long natural cavern filled with magma and to cross the thing you had several large disk platforms attached to the ceiling by chains... if I remember right, it's been a while now, you could not use magical flight to cross the cavern. In most rooms, flight wasn't nerfed but in this one it was- and as a result it was a memorable (and possibly fatal) encounter for many D&D'ers. If my party had simply been able to fly across, rather than try to come up with an alternate solution- I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much.<br /><br />Of course, the problem with White Plume Mountain was kind of contrived... a wizard creates this elaborate, puzzle-laden "vault" to protect three valuable magic weapons, then stocks it with exotic monsters (which had to be a chore, I am sure)... and *then* sends a note out challenging heroes to come and get the weapons?!? But, well, it is hard as  DM to create rooms/dungeons which fit the scenario without seeming to exist soley for the challenge present... its a classic issue.<br /><br />I think flight-based magic items are a particularly ripe issue because they overcome one of most humanoid's weaknesses- being a slave to gravity. Gravity requires we carry things like rope and grappling hooks and is the reason why 30' pit traps are so popular. Gravity is the old stand-by of many DMs when designing physical traps or puzzles... so it's presence, and nerfing, is a hot-topic.<br /><br />I wouldn't have a problem with a red fly potion- it would be limited to one room and expended. If I had one on-hand, and it had been nerfed by the DM/designer, I wouldn't be too upset though... it is simply one more item I had in my dungeon-delving toolkit to tackle issues with.<br /><br />Oh, that reminds me... are there any rules for people quaffing more than one potion in a given room? i.e. the Wizard just exploded because he mixed one too many potions in his gullet?<br />

That's 2nd edition. No miscibility tables in third.

<br />Oh, that reminds me... are there any rules for people quaffing more than one potion in a given room? i.e. the Wizard just exploded because he mixed one too many potions in his gullet?<br />

<br /><br />Only the time it takes to drink them. 

<br />Every time is the hair splitter - WHO SAID EVERYTIME?  No one is saying everytime...what I think we are saying is if there are obvious solutions we mask them - or nerf them somewhat to make it more of a challenge...otherwise it is a walk in the park.   And I think the FLY scroll IS a good example - you could FLY over and attack the MF if you wanted to = right?

  Doesn't even have to be every time.  Even if it is nerfed half the time it is still an injustice to the players.  What about a quarter of the time?  If someone has a fly potion (and how many do you think are actually out there?) and are willing to use it (and how many do you think are willing to use it?) and if they wanted to use it last year (or the year before?) to cross the Moon puzzle then they should be allowed to use it.  The number of people who would actually use that potion in the dungeon is probably very small.  If they are willing to burn that potion then let them.  They won't have it the next time around.  Most groups won't have it.  The same applies to Mage Hand and the jungle jim puzzle.  I think it if it had been allowed that it would NOT have been a bad thing.  After all, how many Mage Hand scrolls are out there and how many people that have them do you think are willing to use them?<br /><br />

We have an impasse here...while I see it as good design to counter the obvious solutions, I think you are saying you welcome the obvious.  IF it were possible to design the UBER challenge where there were no shortcuts - and I do think these exist (Gearon's puzzle for example...) well then KUDOS!  But I think given the intelligent crowd that are TD customers...we have to be ready for the creative solutions (such as lowering a rope from above the jungle-gym equipment, and counter as needed!)

  I'm not saying that I welcome the obvious solutions.  I think that in regards to True Dungeon that some tokens will obviously negate certain challenges.  If they are common or even uncommon tokens then maybe it is OK to negate those tokens but I think it would be a much better solution to redesign the room.  But, if they're tokens that won't crop up all that often then so what?  Isn't that why we buy tokens?  To sometimes have an advantage in the dungeon?  (And if I remember correctly I thought that someone used a fly token to bypass the Chess Puzzle back in the Adventure Above (Below?) way back when.)  <br /><br />Also, there is a huge difference between discovering a flaw in a puzzle/encounter and designing specific encounters that don't allow certain tokens.  I still think it is the easy and unimaginative route to rely too much on the "let's just negate this token" mentality when designing rooms.  Once in a while is fine, but too often and it becomes a problem.

I am just adding an observation about nerfing a scroll that during the Normal Run vs. the Giant you got to use mage hand to get the key.  In nightmare we were told we couldn't.  What bummed me out was I traded a Ioun Stone Faceted Amber for that scroll to specifically use it in that room and for that instance and to be told I couldnt use it made me a sad panda.

Mock I have to say I agree with you about letting folks use things like Fly and that.<br />As you said they're ultra rare, if folks want to use them let them. They'll become that much more rare and less likely to be used.<br /><br />Plus there are already other, less rare ways or by passing things. Especially for those that remember past modules and use that info.<br />Like making the mindflayer 'jump' with Command on the player card, so they jumped off the brigde like the ogre in what 03'?<br />That gave players time to by pass the mindflayer. <br /><br />If players end up with time on their hands so they can look for hidden things that maybe other parties missed, like secret panels, or glyphs(who doesn't love finding a healing glyphs).<br />And/or give DM's an opportunity to spring something else on players that they might not have encountered wise. <br /><br />Having powerful ultra rare tokens is pointless if you are never allowed to use them. You might as well not print them to start with. Yes, they are unbalancing but thats why they are so rare. If they don't want people flying around, then don't make fly tokens. If they don't want people imprisoning monsters for a round then don't make hourglass of imprisonment. <br />I think it would be interesting to see what challenges could arise for those that use such powerful items. We know Jeff is smart enough to come up with twisted ways to torture players beyond nerfing tokens.<br />Like what if using an item like mage hand was permissable in normal, but if you used it during night mare it triggered a magical ward that cast SILENCE in the room, and no other spell could be used the rest of the room and players couldn't talk to each other.

Given how much of True Dungeon's revenue comes from Token Sales, I'd think the last thing TD would want to do would be to start regularly restricting the use of consumable tokens. 

This is not a large-scale problem...I think we need to keep a level perspective.<br /><br />We are discussing a few situational room conditions enforced if there are no other apparent ways to make a room run via "Jeff's master plan" OR to execute a "Jeff approved" solution.<br /><br />The Key room having string added was not a big deal in my opinion...those who couldn't see more than 1 way to get the key out deserved to have problems in that room!<br /><br />I'd like to offer this example - if I went into the chess room - and someone with a FLY said to me - "watch this" ...POOF they are on the other side of the room and they roll the ball over and the puzzle is beaten by a single token.  I'd be left standing thinking - COOL - good thing this guy had that token.  ROOM DONE in 60 seconds.  Now what?  Man - TD really needs to build a better dungeon with challenges that are well challenging!  OR worst case - someone says "What a rip-off."  <br /><br />I think this is why we see one-two physical challenge puzzle every year...these "usually" can't be by-passed and if there is a token that would nerf the challenge - Jeff has that nerfed to make the room viable.  (real examples: no scrolls in the cell room - no mage hand VS the jungle-gym.)<br /><br />So I think rooms already have a certain "nerf factor" by design and I think we have all been very happy with these designs and had more fun raising to the challenge!  Just my opinion, and I hope it does not change!<br />

Or they could have gotten zapped by the lighting for every square they flew over that was the 'wrong' path and probably been toast by the time they got to the other side. So they'd still have bulldogged their way across the room, just like those that walked, but they would have had to use an ultra rare to do it too.<br />So in the end it would make more sense to have walked across and taken the same damage without using the scroll.<br /><br />I think their are things you can do to let people use their tokens, but realize that ALL actions have a consequence whether good or bad.<br /><br />

<br />ROOM DONE in 60 seconds.  Now what?  Man - TD really needs to build a better dungeon with challenges that are well challenging!  OR worst case - someone says "What a rip-off."  <br />

<br /><br />I think that is exactly what people would think. Its hard to please everyone.<br />

I still don't know how the damn chessboard was supposed to work. That puzzle really pissed me off at the time since I couldn't even read the text at the other end of the room. Poor lighting and imperfect vision. I ended up just saying !#%^ it and walking across the darn thing.