TOPIC: About Power Creep . . .

I still think 2 levels is more than sufficient, but I love Mock's handout.<br />

<br />One potential problem with having more than 2 difficulty levels (and corresponding rewards for each) is that completists will feel "obligated" to play (and complete) each level. Those players will then complain about how many runs they have to do (despite the fact that they don't *have* to do every single level). But this will also result in those individuals taking out a whole lot more runs than they already do, which decreases the number of available tickets for newbies.<br />

<br /><br />One possible way to curtail this is to set it so that you only get experience for 1 run above Normal mode.  And while I think that some people would be tempted to try and do them all, I think that most people who do multiple runs would be happy with doing a Normal run and than a run at a different power level.

what percent of players going through the dungeon have almost no tokens other than the pack they get when signing up?  i was just thinking that if that is not a huge percentage, perhaps up the difficulty of 'normal' just a bit (last years hardcore?) to target those with some tokens, but not armed to the teeth, then add a slightly lower level of 'easy' for those with almost nothing...and keep nightmare, because i thought it was just about right (though, i would have liked some more time in the last room to see if we could have won or if iuz would manage to kill us).  XP would be given for the best of easy and normal, then bonus for nightmare...same possible as current.

I'd like to offer my 2GP from a newbie's perspective:<br /><br />'08 was my first TD. I took it upon myself to outfit my party as well as my wallet would allow. Prior to arriving at the marshalling area I had no idea what to expect as far as difficulty levels were concerned. When our coach saw the tokens we were sporting he asked what difficulty we wanted to run. After answering him with "normal", he advised us that most groups that had the AC, + to hit and + to damage that we did were running "nightmare" and doing well. Being tentative, we opted not to take his advice and found the "normal" run to be much easier than expected - to the point that it wasn't much fun. The following day when we were due for our second run, a different coach again suggested we run "nightmare". We elected to do so and found it to be in line with our original expectations.<br /><br />I think TD has it right with the way they're doing it now. If a player wants and has the means to equip themselves to the gills, let them. Buying runs and tokens is what keeps TD afloat. Having coaches that can intelligently advise parties as to what difficulty they seem to be more geared for is where the focus needs to be. Advise the party and let them choose. After our first run we were slightly dejected, but had no one to blame but ourselves for not listening to our coach. If someone wants to go through without being challenged, then let them. In the end TD gets paid and our hobby stays in the black, living to return another year.<br /><br />However, if creep is the ultimate concern, let Jeff and the TD crew set max stats for players. Scaling wouldn't be an issue and it would force players to put more thought into equipment selection. Additional difficulty levels wouldn't be necessary. If AC 25 (just an example, not a suggestion) was max allowed, you would see players becoming more creative with the items they opted to use. Not to mention demand for different types of items (Ioun Stones, boots, belts, rings, consumables, etc) would increase exponentially. Just my thoughts.

Huzzah for the player coaches!  You guys certainly do rule.

I will agree I like the idea of offering an additional 1-2 levels as options to the players like normal/nightmare this year if it stays that simple; as just another option. I think players would want different experience levels for each though. I don't know if "normal"/"everything else" would be accepted well (though I agree with your idea to keep it simple).

<br />what percent of players going through the dungeon have almost no tokens other than the pack they get when signing up?  i was just thinking that if that is not a huge percentage, perhaps up the difficulty of 'normal' just a bit (last years hardcore?) to target those with some tokens, but not armed to the teeth, then add a slightly lower level of 'easy' for those with almost nothing...and keep nightmare, because i thought it was just about right (though, i would have liked some more time in the last room to see if we could have won or if iuz would manage to kill us).  XP would be given for the best of easy and normal, then bonus for nightmare...same possible as current.<br />

<br /><br />The thing to remember is no one goes through with just their pack, if you recall in the prep area the stack of tokens against the wall where Room Refs could improve an ill-equipped player due to a poor draw with some common and uncommon weapons and armor.    Plus trading was seriously encouraged and in the run I participated in where thats what all was brought (the starting pack and a few from the previous year) trading was key.

<br />When our coach saw the tokens we were sporting he asked what difficulty we wanted to run. After answering him with "normal", he advised us that most groups that had the AC, + to hit and + to damage that we did were running "nightmare" and doing well. Being tentative, we opted not to take his advice and found the "normal" run to be much easier than expected - to the point that it wasn't much fun. The following day when we were due for our second run, a different coach again suggested we run "nightmare". We elected to do so and found it to be in line with our original expectations.

<br /><br />I'll put it this way...I don't coach my groups that way because of two things.<br /><br />#1 having a decent AC and +to hit and +damage DOES NOT completely equate to a group that will do well in a dungeon.  <br /><br />#2 How do I know the percentage of groups that are "doing well?"  Coaches do not get factual data tied to tokens equipped to make statements like that!  Oh sure we hear from a few groups we coach - that they lived, but not all the details and not enough to make a good recommendation to a group we only see AC and a couple of other stats for...very risky!<br /><br />It is very risky in my opinion for a coach to say - "These stats look good enough to go Nightmare - come on guys what say you?"  It worked out in your case KUBUJ...but when it does not work out - the complaints are border-line "We want our money back" complaints!<br /><br />

Now that we're completely off the topic of creep...<br /><br />I don't want there to be a misconception about what happened. The coaches didn't push us toward one run or the other, they simply looked at the tokens we had equipped ourselves with and gave us something we were lacking; an insight as to the difficulty of the dungeon vs how we were geared up( AC's, to hit's, etc). As a first-timer, I had no clue what was waiting inside. The coaches roughly explained the differences of the two runs to us and that helped us to make an educated decision. Isn't that what coaches are supposed to do...educate (either about equipping tokens or the run in general) so the group can make their own decisions? For an individual experienced with TD, I'm sure you can make your own assesments as I will from here on out. I had honestly believed I would need purps just to get through the normal run. In reality, the way we were decked out caused it to be less than enjoyable. Will I run "normal" in the future? Yes, but only to get the XP and when I do so, I will find a creative way to challenge myself (commando run comes to mind). Had the coaches not conveyed the differences and the knowledge they had, I probably wouldn't have attempted "nightmare" and thus wouldn't be as excited about TD as I am now and wouldn't have spent the extra money on additional tokens. <br /><br />As for success in the dungeon, keep in mind success and survival are two different things. Dying early is what will upset most people, a group is not likely to be angry if they survive the dungeon to the end. While they may survive, they may not be successful with the varying challenges, that is where the individuals have no one to blame but themselves. Gear can only do so much. I worked exit for a total of 5 or 6 hours between 2 days and I only saw 2 individuals die before the final room in either "nightmare" or "normal" and only a handful more had been resurrected.<br /><br />Just out of curiousity, I'd like to see the data on survival rate through the dungeon and how many "we want our money back" complaints there were. I saw one woman upset because she didn't get a survivor pin due to the collaborative nature of the final room, but that was the only instance I saw or heard about.

On the other side of the discussion coin, the fact is you can be totally outfitted with all the purps you can possibly get, but if you can't slide well in combat or figure out the puzzles, you are still not going to survive the dungeon.  In WW2 the Germans had the best planes, armor and some of the best Generals the world has ever produced, yet they still lost the war.  Execution is just as important as the tools (armor and weapons).  After all, if I go and buy a $600 circular saw, does that make me an expert carpenter? No, skill must be involved as well (and sometimes a bit of luck!).  Look at the True Arena fights.  Consistent good slides beat ACs of 25+.  So to tell a party, you have great equipment and will do well is way off base.  It should be you have great equipment and that will help you do well, but it is no guarantee of success. 

Umm, ya. Being outnumbered like crazy might have also had something to do with that. Give germany equal numbers of men and industrial production and it'd be a bit different.

<br />On the other side of the discussion coin, the fact is you can be totally outfitted with all the purps you can possibly get, but if you can't slide well in combat or figure out the puzzles, you are still not going to survive the dungeon.  In WW2 the Germans had the best planes, armor and some of the best Generals the world has ever produced, yet they still lost the war.  Execution is just as important as the tools (armor and weapons).  After all, if I go and buy a $600 circular saw, does that make me an expert carpenter? No, skill must be involved as well (and sometimes a bit of luck!).  Look at the True Arena fights.  Consistent good slides beat ACs of 25+.  So to tell a party, you have great equipment and will do well is way off base.  It should be you have great equipment and that will help you do well, but it is no guarantee of success.  <br />

<br /><br />I played the barbarian, and I had girdles of hill giant strenth, gauntlets of ogre power, and a +2 great club of bashing.  I had never slid in my life - in fact, I would say that I was a terrible slider.  I was telling my party that I should slide first so I didn't mess them up.  However, I know that I hit the monster with really crappy slides because if I'm doing the calculating right, I had a +6 to hit.  Not to mention all the extra damage I did.  Now, we were on the puzzle side in normal mode, so combat was pretty easy, but we slaughtered every creature we came upon - we never had more than 2 rounds of combat.  I'm sure it had a lot to do with me.  So, yes, tokens can make things much, much easier particularly when it comes to combat.<br /><br />Also, thanks to the party member who suggested we attack the stirges with daggers.  Even with a dagger, I still really could have hurt myself if I hadn't hit it in the first round.<br />